Author Topic: Bolt Action Military Rifles  (Read 2300 times)

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2005, 02:12:14 AM »
Hey guys.. thanks for the education and tips. Seriously! It's all gooooood. ;)

I'm gonna ramp up the search for an M39... the cost of 7.62x54 ammo is the kicker, and from the descriptions of the finn build up on the commie nagant receiver it should certainly fit the accuracy profile. Goes on my winter gun show buy list mostly cause the damn things are still under 200 bucks.

Laz, got a friend that's already hooked up with the CMP.. gonna hook up with him when he comes down state later this month. Definitely gotta check with him onna decent field grade garrand. I'll get there, just can't let my alligator appetite overload my parakeet budget. :)
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Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2005, 07:32:33 AM »
Make sure you actually drive to camp perry to pick your gun.  It's so much more fun and you can pick a very nice one.


You can find decent 7.62x54r ammo out there, though probably not in many gun shops.  Just hit up some online place like the sportsmansguide.com .
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2005, 08:09:33 AM »
303 surplus ammo has about dried up.   I have seen smellies converted to the 7.62x 54 r russian stuff and they were very accurate and.. the ammo is dirt cheap... being a rimmed cartrige like the 303 there are none of the problems the .308 guns have (mags)...  A very slick conversion... if you own russian guns you then have a lot of guns in the same caliber that all shoot cheap ammo...  

I don't know how you guys are getting these groups... I can't see that well at 100 yards... my front sight covers 4" of target... I do allmost as well with my 44 mag... I can shoot 3-4" groups with the open sight rifles and maybe 5-6" with the 44 mag revolvers.  

I shoot the open sight rifles at 50 yards to test loads on the guns.

lazs

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2005, 10:42:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
303 surplus ammo has about dried up.   I have seen smellies converted to the 7.62x 54 r russian stuff and they were very accurate and.. the ammo is dirt cheap... being a rimmed cartrige like the 303 there are none of the problems the .308 guns have (mags)...  A very slick conversion... if you own russian guns you then have a lot of guns in the same caliber that all shoot cheap ammo...  


That's a heluva idea... an Enfield re-chambered would be worthwhile with the cost of ammo being what it is.. assuming I don't get into reloading.

Quote
I don't know how you guys are getting these groups... I can't see that well at 100 yards... my front sight covers 4" of target... I do allmost as well with my 44 mag... I can shoot 3-4" groups with the open sight rifles and maybe 5-6" with the 44 mag revolvers.  

I shoot the open sight rifles at 50 yards to test loads on the guns.

lazs


I know.. I was blind myself beyond 50 yards. Didn't even realize how bad my eyes had gotten till I made it to the range.. years ago I switched to really BIG planes so I could keep flying. ;) Found a great cure.. about a month back I went to the drug store and got a pair of 1.75 diopter reading glasses, full face style. (I already use 3.0's for reading)

Now when I look downrange I can actually see the bull in sharp clear relief. Wan't always that easy.. first time out with the Chinese SKS the damm rounds wern't even on the paper. I was hugely dissapointed. That's when I regrouped, got a nice Tech rear aperature sight (garand style) and the 1.5d glasses and went to try the Chinaman again. Whotta thrill. Took 15 rounds to zero the new sight and it's shooting about  2.5" groups at 50 yards.

When I moved to the 100 yard range I needed a pair of binoculars to spot effectively, but with the 1.5d glasses at least I could get a good hold on the target and I was able to keep the groups to about 4-5".. pretty good for a Chinese short barreled SKS shooting cheap russian ammo. When I tried the bigger Russian SKS (1953 Tula, a MUCH better weapon) the groups were at least an inch tighter.

On the 200 yard range I found that setup, breathing, hold and squeeze habits paid off.. I could kiss my old army range instructor; bastards prolly been dead for 30 years or more.. but the truth is unchanged by time. With a decent aperature sight I can still get 'em on the paper inside 5" groups with the Russian, about 8" (and more flyers) with the short barreled Chinaman. Yep the front sight post about covers the target completely, but you can do it if you are consistent in the setup and paitent. A clean trigger break and a quality weapon and ammo REALLY pays off outside of 100 yards. With the crap I've got, 5" is pretty good for a half blind old man at 200 yards.

Amazing how time flies.. the concentration is complete; yah really gotta get into the 'zone'.

I love it.. can't believe how much I missed it. Really glad to be gettin back into it. Thanks Laz. ;)
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2005, 11:56:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
I am gonna be hard pressed to decide for sure. Fired a Nagant last week.. was ok, decent group. Already have a couple of SKS's.. wasn't seriously considering another commie in the inventory.


I am still upset that I lost my a book from my Father's library called "Sportivnaya strel'ba" (Sports shooting), published in late-50s. :( Half of the book was dedicated to "tuning" a 1891/30 rifle.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2005, 11:59:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TPIguy
Finnish Mosin nagant

Much better quality than the russian versions. Better sights, more accurate. Much more compfortable stock (to me.)  


Did Finland produce three-line rifles, ot it is just an "upgrade" of original Russian rifles made in Sestroretsk or Tula before 1918?

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2005, 12:08:17 PM »
Just about all the Finns kept was the receiver. New heavier barrels with improved rifleing, modified or new bolts, better sights, different design stocks. By all reports a supurb weapon in it's day... considered by many to be the finest version of the nagant design.
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Offline mipoikel

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« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2005, 12:38:10 PM »
I am a spy!

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2005, 01:19:51 PM »
Several manufacturers for ammo in 7.62x54

http://www.outdoormarksman.com/index.php?cPath=65_63_48&osCsid=8d08c51f8d1f073b66e1e75a920e2d78

Stay away from the Wolf stuff.  Its cheaper for a reason.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2005, 02:00:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mipoikel
Good site http://www.mosinnagant.net

FAQ: http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/finnfaq.asp


Last time I checked that site several years ago there wasn't that much info.

Quote
Did the Finns capture all the Mosin Nagants they used in service either as issue rifles or to make use of the receivers?

No.  While the Finns did take large numbers of Mosin Nagants in the Finnish Civil War of 1918 as well as the Winter War of 1939-1940, then Finns also purchased a great number of rifles abroad in the 1920's.  Most of the Finnish stockpile of Mosin Nagants came from these outside purchases.


"Abroad" - this is interesting. Did they buy original Russian/Soviet rifles?  Or maybe American "Hartford" version, that was famous for it's horrible quality? Americans got a huge stock of 1891/09 rifles after 1917, not only ones that were paid by Imperial government and never delivered, but also huge quantities "captured" by intervent forces in Archangelsk during Civil War.

By 1891/09 I mean a version that could use 1909 "light" (ogival) bullet cartridge, not only old 1891 hemispheric bullets.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2005, 02:29:02 PM »
hang... I wear glasses to shoot my vision is 20/15 corrected... it was 20/15 uncorrected for most of my life.   With open sigts tho... most of the target is obscured at 100 yards... especially an apeture with military post front... I shoot slightly better grops with a small bead front sight that equals about 2 moa.... I would say that most post front sights obscure 4" or so of a target.   If you hold 6 oclock at the base of a small (4") bull you will do better.... but... it is difficult.  

I never was a great rifle shot... 3" groups with open sights at 100 yards allways were about the best I could do.
lazs

Offline stantond

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« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2005, 06:50:56 PM »
Anyone ever do business with these people?  

http://www.mitchellsales.com/

They sell a WW2 era Mauser K98-M48  with a sling, bayonette, etc. and advertise in the American Rifleman.  I have been looking to pick one at a gun show, but after this long I don't think that will happen.   The rifles cost $299 and were made in Serbia in 1943.  I plan to order one sometime before Christmas.


Regards,

Malta

Offline Charon

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« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2005, 09:13:46 PM »
Quote
Anyone ever do business with these people? ... WW2 era Mauser K98-M48


They sell a Yugo mauser that never served in WW2 for a couple of hundered more than you can get elsewhere. They pretty them up real nice, which has value to some, but their ad copy suggest real k98 to many who don't know better. For example: "A genuine Mauser 98K, the Model M48 is the Strongest and Best of the original bolt-action Rifles. " No, it is a model 48. The K98 is similar, in the same family, but not the same by any means. The action size is even different.

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The rifles cost $299 and were made in Serbia in 1943. I plan to order one sometime before Christmas.


The Yugoslav M48 Mauser rifle was manufactured from 1950-65 at the Zavodi Crvena Zastava (Red Banner Works. Zastava was known as "Preduzece 44"--meaning Enterprise 44, from 1945-52. In 1952 it was renamed Red  Banner Works.) http://www.surplusrifle.com/yugom48/index.asp

Mitchells has received so much flack, that they have started adding some disclaimers on the site, presenting faults as "advantages" and hoping nobody reads the fine print too closely.

The historical "real" K98s they advertise are super expensive and restored (which is a direct contradiction). Restoration kills collector value, so you are paying twice as much for half as much. They never say "all martching" in their copy, so I might surmise that they are humped up russian captures, cleaned up "refinished" maybe restocked and restamped and hugely marked up to start at $2,500. You would be very lucky to get $700 in resale "restored" IF they were actually all matching and not faked. If faked, maybe $200 from somebody that liked a pretty rifle.

If you want a really nice M-48 at a good price try AIM: http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Yugoslavian_Model_48_8mm_Mauser_Rifle.html It might not be "quite" as pretty but it will be in very good or better condition. $119

A variety of sources sell straight russian capture K98k mismatched shooters for around $200. I paid $150 for mine in rough condition. It had a dark "pitted" looking bore, but after 100 rounds it cleaned up sharp and bright. I guess the pitting was just particle of super crud that just wouldn't brush out without some "help" :)

No real collector value with the RCs, since they are totally mismatched. The Russias took all the captured k98s, broke them down into parts, disposed of the damaged and reassembled the rest into random, non matching (serial number) guns for use in WW3. You can leave them in their nasty russian varnish finish "because that's part of their history too..." or strip the varnish and restore them to their precapture glory (mostly) without worry about "ruining" their value. They may be rough (some more than others), but they have actually been there, and can be pretty good shooters.

Try  Empire Arms http://www.empirearms.com/. They have top end, well described hand selected RCs for about the same price (or less) as the very pretty but not historical M-48s at Mitchells.

Charon
« Last Edit: October 19, 2005, 09:57:25 PM by Charon »

Offline Charon

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« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2005, 09:50:38 PM »
Hang, if you are looking for M39s try Wholesale Guns & Ammo. They have the largest selection (bought about all that are left, apparently 12,000) but can only sell the antique receiver guns for now since they got in some trouble recently with ATF and are working it out, apparently over some parts kit guns from years ago that were slighly not to Govt. requirements. http://www.gunsnammo.com/

I got mine there a while back, a nice 1942. Remember, in their ad a shiney bore is not necessiarily a sharp bore, but Sharp AND shiney (or mirror) is good. And, there is finish and "original" finish (some rearsenaled).  Unissued are, I believe, guns made post war from non assembled parts. Some also have post war replacement stocks.


Charon
« Last Edit: October 19, 2005, 10:00:44 PM by Charon »

Offline stantond

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« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2005, 10:01:07 PM »
Damn Charon.... well... thanks.

Regards,

Malta