Bolt Action Military Rifles

[kevykev56]

IMHO one of the best deals for shooters out there are the Yugo K98 reworks. Their history was scrubbed away and replaced with a yugo coat of arms. Most of these were captured following the war. They are a bit more expensive than the M48s but are worth the extra $30 or so. I purchased 3 of them about a year ago and the rifles appear to be almost new. These are original German made rifles and used during the war. They are refurbished to a much better quality than the russian captures. However the Russian captures mostly still retain the original markings. So if you want a shooter go for the Yugo K98. If you collect get the Russian, or a vet bring back.

A quick Link I found that has the Yugo captures, there are many others. I just dont have time to search anymore. Also some other nice rifles on this page.

Another good site for the Yugo M48s are here, Militaryshooters.com  These have all the same cool stuff you get with the Mitchell Mausers, at a cheaper price. Still, hard to beat AIM for thier customer service and products.



Here is a Link for dealers  that sell relic firearms. Its an Ezboard so you may need to become a member to view it. Lots of great info on that site. Plus under the yugo section you can read about others who have purchased Mitchell mausers.

HTH

[kevykev56]

Here are a few pics of the 98k Yugo captures I recieved. This is just as I pulled them out of the shipping boxes. Sorry, not the greatest pics but you get the idea. I was very pleased at $112 each. CDNN has sold out of these long ago.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Charon
Hang, if you are looking for M39s try Wholesale Guns & Ammo. They have the largest selection (bought about all that are left, apparently 12,000) but can only sell the antique receiver guns for now since they got in some trouble recently with ATF and are working it out, apparently over some parts kit guns from years ago that were slighly not to Govt. requirements. http://www.gunsnammo.com/

I got mine there a while back, a nice 1942. Remember, in their ad a shiney bore is not necessiarily a sharp bore, but Sharp AND shiney (or mirror) is good. And, there is finish and "original" finish (some rearsenaled).  Unissued are, I believe, guns made post war from non assembled parts. Some also have post war replacement stocks.


Charon

Holy Crap! These guys are in the same town as my range!!

Definitely gonna be giving them a call.... mebbe I can stop by to fondle before I buy. THANKS, Charon!

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by kevykev56
IMHO one of the best deals for shooters out there are the Yugo K98 reworks. Their history was scrubbed away and replaced with a yugo coat of arms. Most of these were captured following the war. They are a bit more expensive than the M48s but are worth the extra $30 or so. I purchased 3 of them about a year ago and the rifles appear to be almost new. These are original German made rifles and used during the war. They are refurbished to a much better quality than the russian captures. However the Russian captures mostly still retain the original markings. So if you want a shooter go for the Yugo K98. If you collect get the Russian, or a vet bring back.

A quick Link I found that has the Yugo captures, there are many others. I just dont have time to search anymore. Also some other nice rifles on this page.

Another good site for the Yugo M48s are here, Militaryshooters.com  These have all the same cool stuff you get with the Mitchell Mausers, at a cheaper price. Still, hard to beat AIM for thier customer service and products.

Here is a Link for dealers  that sell relic firearms. Its an Ezboard so you may need to become a member to view it. Lots of great info on that site. Plus under the yugo section you can read about others who have purchased Mitchell mausers.

HTH

Damn.. just spent the last hour rooting thru these sites...my word; those are some fine lookin pieces. Kev, really, this is above 'n beyond; I hugely appreciate the links. I had an Argentinian about 30 years ago.. used it to chop down trees in Maine. Certianly nowhere near a nice as what you've got there... just a good stump thumper that would chuck a slug clean thru a 56 ford pickup. Don't ask.

Again.. thanks for the research and the links.. great info!

[AdmRose]

Any word on the accuracy of M38 Arisaka rifles? One of my exes fathers uses one for deer hunting and swears by it.

[Charon]

Damn Charon.... well... thanks.

THANKS, Charon!

No problem. I am still VERY new to this myself. But you have to get up on the learning curve with these things pretty quickly before you start spending the cash, because it’s easy to make bad moves or at least not the best moves. I don't have an unlimited budget either, and would like to build up a nice shooter collection on the cheap with the most bang for the buck (pun intended), so I try to make every dollar count.

I wouldn’t even think of getting into matching German rifles or US Rifles (short of CMP) or “snipers” at this point since they cost Boo Coo $$$$ and there are a lot of fakers or “humpers” out there stamping up that $4,000 “all matching SS Sniper” on Gunsamerica or "Winchester M1 cartouced stock" on E-bay. Too much money and too much experience required to spot the fakes and if you do get an original real deal, probably too valuable to want to shoot all that much.

Here are some good sites with good forums, in order of my general perceived quality of information:

http://www.gunboards.com/  (heavy Finn Mosin Nagant focus, but very good coverage of everything else too)

http://p077.ezboard.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums  (probably need to register with Ezboard. Good coverage, don’t even think of discussion permanent sporterizing)

http://www.jouster.com/  (Excellent US rifle coverage boards, good everything else)

http://www.surplusrifle.com/  (Nice articles at main site, OK boards from a knowledge standpoint)

http://p223.ezboard.com/bcurioandrelicfirearmsforum (Good forums, not as active as some)

http://thefiringline.com/forums/index.php  (Mainstream board, pleny of bubbas and "mall rangers" but pretty entertaining at time)

http://www.ar15.com/forums/  (not an Evil Black Rifle guy myself -- yet, BUT… the hometown forums give good coverage of pending state laws. Especially the case since “EBRs” are usually high on the target list.

The various boards are very informative about the hobby, but not quite as stimulating or diverse as the O'Club where general discussions are concerned - to put it mildly Actually, the researching and gun board surfing, buying and cleaning and occasional 2.5-hour round trip to shoot has eaten up a lot of my AH time this past year. I think I have found my Golf… Unfortunately, not a lot of friends in the area who I grew up with who have any background with firearms from military service or anything else.

Charon

[Charon]

Nice rifles RHINO. The stocks look particularly nice.

Any word on the accuracy of M38 Arisaka rifles? One of my exes fathers uses one for deer hunting and swears by it.

I've read comments by a few people who are impressed. The Finnish M39s, Swede and Swiss rifles have generally good reputations out of the box. Most are comprably accurate if they are in good shape without obvious bedding issues and with good bores and the right ammo. In my case, more accurate than the shooter

Charon

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Charon
No problem. I am still VERY new to this myself. But you have to get up on the learning curve with these things pretty quickly before you start spending the cash, because it’s easy to make bad moves or at least not the best moves. I don't have an unlimited budget either, and would like to build up a nice shooter collection on the cheap with the most bang for the buck (pun intended), so I try to make every dollar count.

I wouldn’t even think of getting into matching German rifles or US Rifles (short of CMP) or “snipers” at this point since they cost Boo Coo $$$$ and there are a lot of fakers or “humpers” out there stamping up that $4,000 “all matching SS Sniper” on Gunsamerica or "Winchester M1 cartouced stock" on E-bay. Too much money and too much experience required to spot the fakes and if you do get an original real deal, probably too valuable to want to shoot all that much.

Here are some good sites with good forums, in order of my general perceived quality of information:

http://www.gunboards.com/  (heavy Finn Mosin Nagant focus, but very good coverage of everything else too)

http://p077.ezboard.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums  (probably need to register with Ezboard. Good coverage, don’t even think of discussion permanent sporterizing)

http://www.jouster.com/  (Excellent US rifle coverage boards, good everything else)

http://www.surplusrifle.com/  (Nice articles at main site, OK boards from a knowledge standpoint)

http://p223.ezboard.com/bcurioandrelicfirearmsforum (Good forums, not as active as some)

http://thefiringline.com/forums/index.php  (Mainstream board, pleny of bubbas and "mall rangers" but pretty entertaining at time)

http://www.ar15.com/forums/  (not an Evil Black Rifle guy myself -- yet, BUT… the hometown forums give good coverage of pending state laws. Especially the case since “EBRs” are usually high on the target list.

The various boards are very informative about the hobby, but not quite as stimulating or diverse as the O'Club where general discussions are concerned - to put it mildly Actually, the researching and gun board surfing, buying and cleaning and occasional 2.5-hour round trip to shoot has eaten up a lot of my AH time this past year. I think I have found my Golf… Unfortunately, not a lot of friends in the area who I grew up with who have any background with firearms from military service or anything else.

Charon

I'm new to it also.. and learning more all the time. I have a voracious reading appetite, and while I can 'shoot' pretty well, I'm not gifted with anything more than paitence. I am fascinated by the relationship between the weapon and the shooter, and really appreciate the brilliance of thinking and clarity of design and execution these old military rifles represent.

Funny how our brains are running parallel tracks... I'd have had nothing more than a passing information point of interest in the german and russian rifle designs if the price relationship between them and comparative American weapons and ammo were not so incredibly vast.

For me the pressing limitation is economy (for now) and I'm looking for a 'long gun' shooter for the shooting aspect.. not the collecting aspect. I find the 'purists' that bemoan the 'bubbafication' of a military rifle kinda funny... one guy griping about a big old springfield on a montecarlo stock with a scope was driving a carved up Satellite Serbing. Wus ok to 'bubbafy' his classic mopar, but a travesty to improve the useability of an old military rifle that's more plentiful than volkswagons in mexico.

I even have the same range problem you got... firing a rifle ANYWHERE on Long Island is expressly verboten.. have to drive about an hour to a public range that has a 250 yard target line. Pricey on gas, $10.00 4 hour range fee... makes it even more pressing to get the most 'bang for the buck' with an accurate shooter. I thought it was 'repressive' here.. Chicago's (and Illinois) legal persecution of shooters is legend. Takes a determined man to pursue the hobby there...

And again.. thanks for the links and research info.. damn that was finest kind!

[lasersailor184]

It's not that Sporting out a rifle ruins it's value.  Or isn't that useful.


It's just that it's fuggin ugly.

[Hangtime]

LOL.. nothin much uglier than a straight military stock that's split, dented and weak from split wrists and unserviceable bedding. Even a 1903A3 on a C stock looks and shoots a heluva lot better than a straight stock WWI version.

But that's just me.. the beauty is in the functionality. Not in worn out stocks and sights that limit practical use to 300 yards when the gun can drive tacks at 600 with a decent scope.

Collectors collect.. shooters shoot. Functional beauty for me follows form of use and realization of potential. Like Charon mentioned.. my ideal rife is one that shoots better than I can.

[lazs2]

hang.. I bought one of the mitchells mausers when they were $275  they have gone up.   I was not disapointed.   it was made in 1945 using german tooling.   The gun apears to have never been fired and is mint.   The accessories include tin oil and solvent bottles, cartrige boxes and a new bayonet and sheath and issue cleaning kit. and...  a very good manual as well as certificate of authenticity.

In all respects the rifle is a 98k... parts are interchangeable but... It isn't gonna be like a late war slave made 98 that may blow up in your face..  They are excellent shooters that look brand new and I am sure that they will continue to appreciate in value but it is really neat to have a brand new 98.

I have other mausers that are from "good" to decent shape..   One guns shop sporter that probly sold for $25 in the sixties that has cut down and filled military stock and redfield peep sight.... stock stepped barrel and all... but a great shooter.

lazs

[Charon]

Well, M48s and K98s do not have interchangable parts. They have entirely differnt actions - a shorter "intermediate" with the M48. And, the earliest production year of the yugo M1948 (1948 model year) rifle was 1950. I understand they have some production markings that can be confusing and suggest an earlier year.

Mitchells have nice clean polished m48s with a good presentation kit. But they are not WW2 production, not interchangable with K98ks and typically worth less once they leave the door, unless you find someone that likes a nice polished rifle. If you do, by all means sell it because you may have trouble finding the next one. They have no practical collectors value, though many purists would argue the same for the RC "parts guns." Though one recently sold for $500 which caused quite a stir at gunboards. M48s are great, practical shooters though, particularly at $119. My earlier link covered it, but here's some more:

NO RIFLE MARKED 'M-48' WAS EVER MADE DURING WWII. ‘48’ DENOTES YEAR OF ADOPTION (1948).

All Yugoslavian Mauser rifles bearing 'M-48' markings were made in Yugoslavia at the Preduzece 44 (Zastava) factory. While it is true an extremely small number of prototypes were made during the Second World War, none of these research prototypes were ever marked 'M-48'. So far as we are aware, there are no prototypes for sale anywhere in North America - or, for that matter, anywhere else in the world - and if there were one, the asking price would be understandably quite high as a prized collectors' item - and its markings definitely different from those of the M-48 series.

These rifles are readily available in as new, un-issued condition. It is conceivable that a very small number of M-48s are arsenal refinished and some are available used, however these would definitely stand out from the rest since they would all bear unique ‘arsenal refinished’ markings. We have sold both un-issued and used condition M-48s (offering each in accurately-graded condition).

The M-48 is very similar to the German Mauser K-98 save for the much finer craftsmanship and materials used in comparison with later-WWII German rifles. Practically all parts of the M-48 are crafted from milled as opposed to stamped steel. Typically the Mauser M-48 series rifles will be offered with a Yugo-made bayonet copied from the early pattern German K-98 wood-handled bayonet (a barrel support ring was added to the Yugo version).

COMPARISON OF FLOOR PLATES

Yugoslavian Model M-48A Mauser Rifle

This is the first major variant of the Yugoslavian M-48 Mauser pattern rifle. In order to reduce production costs without compromising quality, the Preduzece 44 (Zastava) factory introduced stamped barrel bands, trigger guards, and floor plates, the latter (along with the 'M-48A' receiver markings) being the main distinguishing feature between this rifle and the earlier M-48'
Yugoslavian Model M-48B Mauser Rifle

This is the second and last variant of the M-48 series, also produced by Zastava, made extensive use of stamped metal parts. All other specifications are identical to the others in the M-48 series or differ in such minute ways as to be deemed insignificant. Naturally the receiver markings are 'M-48B'.

Yugoslavian Model M-48BO Mauser Rifle

These rifles, of which only a few thousand were produced, are a very obscure and interesting anecdote of history. 'BO' stands for 'bez oznake’, which means 'without markings' as these rifles have NONE save for a serial number!

The M-48BO is a true early example of a 'sanitized' weapon: there are no markings present anywhere on the rifle except a couple serial numbers. They are not even marked 'M-48'! Our sources from within the (former) Yugoslavian military state the 'BO' rifles were intended for sale to Egypt, but even the paltry few thousand which were at that point ready for initial delivery to that country could not be shipped due to the onset of the Suez Crisis of 1956. No more were produced for reasons outlined in the following paragraph.

Following the Suez Crisis, most of the world's armies (including Egypt and Yugoslavia) phased out bolt action rifles in favour of self-loading (semi-auto) or fully automatic infantry service rifles. The M-48BO was thus relegated to the storehouse and left in packing crates until we discovered them in a forgotten corner of a warehouse a couple years ago.

This might be useful to establish a date from the serial #

The Yugoslavs produced about 52,000 M48s in 1950, about 92,000 in 1951....and about 94,000 in 1952. The changeover to the M48a occured in 1952...so no M48s were produced after 1952. If your serial number is lower than 52,000, whether it has a letter prefix or not....this would reinforce the idea that your rifle is from 1950. The walnut stock (especially given that it is original) almost certainly dates the rifle to 1950 - probably among the first few "runs" of 10,000. That is as close as anyone can get. http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=117524

I believe some people confuse the factory code, for example, Preduzece 44, with a production year. Similarly, the Yugos scrubbed and restamped their captured German K98ks as RHINO showed, but I'm not aware of Mitchells selling any.

BTW Lazs, what evidence do you have of the late war K98ks blowing up? I've seen this discussed a several times and it is usually easily dismissed as urban legend, other than some finishing and simplification issues.


Charon

[kevykev56]

Originally posted by Hangtime

Collectors collect.. shooters shoot. Functional beauty for me follows form of use and realization of potential. Like Charon mentioned.. my ideal rife is one that shoots better than I can.

Ahh, But I like to combine the two. I never purchase a rifle that I dont intend on shooting. All of mine are collectable and are all shooters. I see no reason to own\collect a non-functional gun.

As for the M48, I picked up a non-fired M48BO "Without Markings". The gun is just same as brand new. It is one of my favorites. As far as quality tho, the German K98s just feel better IMHO. The actions are much smoother and an overall better quality weapon.

Now if you want old world quality out of a Yugo model go look at the M24/47's. still a short action mauser but action is as slick as the 98k. I have one of these that I call another one of my favorites to shoot. It has the best action out of all except the Czech 98/22s.



Lazs those parts are for the most part non interchangeable. The bolt/action is about 1/8" shorter.  The only parts I can think of that will swap out would be the trigger and sight hood.

I understood the slave weapons to be of a very high quality. I know very late in the war some tried sabatoge on the weapons but most slaves were in fear of their lives if they made mistakes. I may be remembering that wrong tho, I havent done any reading on it in a while. If you have a link I would appreciate it...never to old to learn about history.



Hang, be careful with this C&R stuff. It can become quite addictive. Before you know it you will have an FFL and the UPS man will know you by first name. Really a cool feeling to see the BBT pull up an open another present. Makes me want to order one now. I sure could use one each of the AIM Shooter specials

[Charon]

Here's an exhaustive discussion of Mitchells mausers. If it's your rifle and you like it... more power to you. $275 wouldn't get you near the quality today at Wally World.

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=106432&SearchTerms=mitchells,mausers

But, if someone is interested in a "historical" or poternially collectable or cheaper shooter mauser -- there are plenty of altrnatives.

Charon

[lazs2]

I am not interested in the historical aspect or the rise in value.  Fact is the 48's are probly more rare than the zillions of 98's tho.

the gun is nice to look at and to shoot.   It seemed to be in unfired condition to me and has risen in value... the 98's I have owned have never gone up and are pretty beat.  

I switched the ejector and bolt release and two piece bolt cover and spring with no problem to a broken 98.   The mitchel gun outshoots 3 98's that friends have and looks like a brand new gun.   You can buy all the accesories that come with the mitchel gun for around 50 bucks tho if you shop around.... a little more if you want the kind of quality that came with this gun...

All in all... I think it is a great value.

all the numbers match.. I can't help but think all the sour grapes from advertisers on the gun boards is just that.   20 years from now people will probly be looking for a good mitchells gun.  

if you paid a gunsmith 200 bucks to restore your 200 buck 98 it wouldn't come out as nice.