Hello Nashwan,
Finally have a moment to get to some of your other points in your reply to me...
Originally posted by Nashwan
An end to the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem.
Something like, say, The Geneva Accord (unnofical treaty negotiated between Yossi Beilin and Yasser Rabbo)
Or the Saudi peace plan:
Or the roadmap:
Or what about the plan Amos Malka, then head of Israeli military intelligence, advised Ehud Barak that Arafat would accept at Camp David:
Each one of these agreements would ultimately fail because they have no support amongst the bulk of the Palestinian people, regardless of what is negotiated by the leaders of Palestine. And all of the various armed Palestinian groups carrying out the actual attacks within Israel are dedicated not merely to errecting a Palestinian state alongside of Israel, but ultimately to eliminating Israel entirely. Palestine to them extends from Jordan to the Med, and the struggle cannot end until that particular vision is achieved. So ceding various bits and pieces of Israel to the Palestinian authority is not going to stop the violence, quite the opposite in fact.
For instance, Hamas states at the very beginning of their Charter:
" Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. "And incidentally, anyone who doesn't believe this is ultimately a religious, rather than political, struggle needs to read the charters of groups like Hamas, especially regarding their ties to the Worldwide Muslim brotherhood and the "universality" of their objectives.
Hamas Charter Now one can negotiate till doomsday, but nothing will deter groups like this from pursuing their final solution to the problem of Israel other than perhaps conversion.
I wouldn't think so now. The last 60 years have created a great deal of bitterness amongst the Palestinians.
Lest we forget, the declaration of Israeli statehood in 1948 led to the almost immediate invasion of all her Arab neighbors, and of course the Palestinians living in the territory chose to either assist those Arab armies or become refugees, the differences between these two sides have been irreconcilable from the very beginning. How does one negotiate a settlement with a group that says essentially,
the only solution to the problem is that you cease to exist forever? This is also the reason why we won't be able to negotiate a "peaceful settlement" in the war on terror, which is a fact most Westerners have yet to grasp.
Prior to the establishment of the state of Israel, hundreds of thousands of Jews did live the Arab countries, and seem to have been able to practice their religion.
Hardly, they lived in a state of Dhimmitude (third class citizens, required to pay an additional tax, banned from most government jobs, highly restricted in their ability to own property, etc.), they were forbidden to build new synagogues, and were under the constant threat of expulsion from those countries or worse. As a result of the Muslim revival starting in the late 40s those conditions have progressively worsened. Several states have waged aggressive pogroms, seized synagogues and turned them into Mosques, and tightened restrictions overall and the Jewish populations have dropped precipitously as a result. For instance in Egypt the overall population dropped from 60,000 in the 40s to just 8,000 in 1957 following the election of Nasser, and the massive arrests and confiscations he brought about.
Being a Jew in Muslim countries is about as much fun as being a Christian in Pakistan.
Anyway, two final points:
Israel will never hand over Jerusalem, this is their capitol regardless of the fact that we all pretend its Tel Aviv, and has too much historical significance for Jews to give up. The city of David is a non-negotiable, as is the Temple mount. The Palestinians, on the other hand, will never be happy with just East Jerusalem and they insist on gaining control over the temple mount because of the Dome of Rock. This issue is simply irreconcilable.
As to the idea that terrorism would be
reduced if:
A) The Palestinians gained sovereign control over part of Israel: this has historically been shown to be bunk. Every handover has been preceeded and followed by a wave of new attacks. For groups like Islamic Jihad, Fatah, and Hamas these handovers are merely steps towards final victory and make it progressively easier for them to import weapons, build bombs and so on.
The increase in the use of IDF helicopter and jet attacks in the areas under Palestinian control and the inevitable collateral damage that occurs shows another downside of these handovers. It used to be if you wanted to grab the head of Hamas or a bomb making cell in the occupied territories, the IDF could send in a few squads of soldiers. Now since they are under the control of the Palestinians, missles and bombs become the only option. Please note also that when an Israeli bomb kills children, this is collateral damage from another objective, however when Hamas explodes a bomb on a bus filled with civillians (using ball-bearings coated in rat poison to prevent clotting and cause the wounded to bleed out I might add) their objective was to kill those kids - so lets stop comparing police actions to terrorist attacks can we?
B) The Palestinians gained Sovereign Control over all of Israel: Aside from what this would mean to the Jews living there ("Greetings Jews, remember when we said 'Never Again'? Well 'never' turned out to be a shorter period of time than we expected...") Hamas and Islamic Jihad aren't in business simply to remove Israel, just as the Jihadis wouldn't end the Jihad if we left Iraq, they have a greater ideological quest that extends throughout every continent. So the idea that Palestinians would stop the process of Jihad if we gave them a small part of the greater objective is no more logical than saying if we'd just given Hitler a little more Lebensraum he would have abandoned the rest of the
Mein Kampf manifesto. Jordanian, Saudi, and Syrian Jihadis all have a sovereign homeland, and yet you'll find them in Chechnya, Kosovo, Macedonia, Afghanistan, the Phillipines, London, and all over the globe divising new ways to blow the infidels up. Hamas merely has the advantage of being able to do it in their own back yard.
Also, from speaking with members of the US military, really the only intelligence group that has been successful in actually
infiltrating the terror groups is the Israeli Mossad. They tell me that most of our "on the ground" intel in areas outside of Iraq and Afghanistan has an Israeli connection - especially in countries were our own Intel networks are virtually non-existant, like Iran.
Take out the Mossad, and a lot of those plans and cells that get busted every month are going to playing out in a city near you.
- SEAGOON
