Author Topic: Abortion and the Death Penalty  (Read 2999 times)

Offline Seagoon

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #180 on: November 01, 2005, 04:13:28 PM »
I'm already smacking myself in the head for even thinking of wading into this discussion, especially at such an advanced stage. I'll forgo the desire to post the 3D images of our last child sucking his thumb in the womb (man he's cute and relatively well behaved back then) and begin by posing a question based on the originally connected subjects: "Abortion and the Death Penalty."

Under the Death Penalty, someone found guilty of unlawfully taking human life is punished by forfeiting their own. Regardless of whether you think the punishment is just, the person is suffering the consequences of their own premeditated actions.

However, in an abortion, a person who has never committed any crime is forced to forfeit their life. They are executed without trial or any possiblity of appeal. The only crime they have committed is to live, when others did not wish them to.

Now, how is that just? Since when is the best answer to a "problem" to punish the only truly innocent party in the matter?

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Trell

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #181 on: November 01, 2005, 08:11:49 PM »
No problems with then  ending abortions,  

IF they can force a pregnancy at any tine that the girl wants,

If the pro life advocates want to spend millions on saving, very very premature fetuses then they can do at it,

I feel that the women should have the option to  abort or let the doctors take it out of her how ever they want to,   But it should be completely there choice..


At the most maybe add a 3 day waiting time like guns, to keep rash decision from cropping up.

pro life people claim that is it life at conceptopn,   then it should be able to live with out her,

If it has to depend on the women for life,  if it is inside or outside then itg is still not a compleate life yet..

if it can be taken out,  and live,  then  that could me another option for them.

Offline Holden McGroin

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #182 on: November 01, 2005, 10:42:38 PM »
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I'm not a member of any political party.--Sandman


Quote
I'm not a member of any organized political party; I am a Democrat .--Will Rogers
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Offline Sandman

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #183 on: November 01, 2005, 10:46:59 PM »
That's funny Holden, but we can't really compare the democratic party today to the dem party that Rogers knew. Reagan changed the political landscape. By today's standards, Nixon would be a democrat.
sand

Offline Holden McGroin

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #184 on: November 01, 2005, 10:54:42 PM »
Please... I was noting the Iambic Pentameter and the synergy of the Chaucerian like couplet and the enjambment of the two phrases.

No political intent at all.
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Offline Sandman

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #185 on: November 01, 2005, 10:56:37 PM »
LOL... so noted sir.
sand

Offline Torque

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #186 on: November 01, 2005, 11:19:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
torque... if those numbers are true then I only have a problem with... what did you say?  1% of the abortions that are performed on viable human beings.  

lazs


viable after 28 weeks, it's probably as low as .1%-.3%.

you're getting all worked up over a rather minute percentage, as those who use infant deaths related to firearms as an argument for gun control.

seagoon...what trimester do they become sinners?

Offline Booz

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #187 on: November 02, 2005, 12:00:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
That's funny Holden, but we can't really compare the democratic party today to the dem party that Rogers knew. Reagan changed the political landscape. By today's standards, Nixon would be a democrat.


 No, LBJ is the one who changed the political landscape, what with all that equal rights, and great society stuff, todays red states jumped ship like rats

Offline Sandman

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #188 on: November 02, 2005, 12:11:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Booz
No, LBJ is the one who changed the political landscape, what with all that equal rights, and great society stuff, todays red states jumped ship like rats


Go take another look at Nixon presidency. If he were the president today, the GOP would be livid.
sand

Offline pigface

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #189 on: November 02, 2005, 02:36:30 AM »
From Gunslinger:
Quote
Some how prisoners lose their constitutional right to vote among other things while in prison but still have the right to an abortion.


This is incorrect. Prisoners are not allowed abortions. In fact, there is a case pending now that a woman is suing to have one. The problem the judge is facing is that abortions are NOT paid for by the people, therefore they cannot allow it, since all medical service to a prisoner are paid for by the people. In addition to this, she would need a guarded excort, which is also paid for by the people.

So those that think you are paying for aborthons, wrong.

In another perspective, the newly appointed Supreme Court justice,wants to have the husband be notified of an impending abortion. This many are agains, however, if a guy wants to get his nutz snipped, he neesd to bring the wife in to sign her approval on the medical documents.

There ya have it, that the truth.


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Offline lazs2

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #190 on: November 02, 2005, 09:56:25 AM »
torque... I am not at all worked up about it.. but I do have an opinion.

comparing the purposeful killing of an innocent by society to the criminal or accidental death of children (who may or may not be innocent) is ludicrous tho.

lazs

Offline Silat

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #191 on: November 02, 2005, 11:27:23 AM »
Interesting that righties want to invade a womens privacy to control her body and what is in it but at the same time support killing someone.
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Offline lazs2

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #192 on: November 02, 2005, 02:16:10 PM »
interesting that lefties advocate killing innocent children if the child in the least inconvienences the maternal parent but are against the putting down of vicious murderers to prevent them from preying on society.

lazs

Offline Holden McGroin

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #193 on: November 02, 2005, 02:45:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
Go take another look at Nixon presidency. If he were the president today, the GOP would be livid.


Nixon and JFK could probably switch parties in today's spectrum.  JFK cut taxes and had an interventionist foreign policy.  Nixon grew government and the EPA and the endangered species act came under his watch.  

Although it was congress that passed all the laws.  Congress is the first among equals in our three branches.
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Offline Seagoon

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Abortion and the Death Penalty
« Reply #194 on: November 02, 2005, 04:21:25 PM »
Ok, trying to answer two different threads...

First "viability" has never been an adequate definition of personhood. The definition is entirely arbitrary and effectively strips premies who require intense medical assistance in order to survive of "personhood".  They are not non-persons who become persons through successful medical treatment. It also has nasty implications for other related issues, if someone who cannot survive by themselves is a non-person then in all liklihood some of your relatives will lose their personhood, and therefore the implied right to continue to live, prior, to their death.

In any event, this is ultimately semantics, what we as a society are searching for is an excuse for doing what we want, namely to vest the right to decide whether a child lives or dies in the whims of their mother. However, because we still have a few remaining scruples, we also want to reserve the right to pick an arbitrary point at which the mother no longer has a right to take the life of her offspring. But practical experience indicates that pro-abortion groups object to any attempt to implement such a impediment on their ability to legally take a life. This was evident from the fight over partial birth abortions.

Ultimately the issue terminates in your view of the origin of life. If we are just the result of what evolutionary psychologist Stephen Pinker called the "primate assembly process" then any notion of "rights" is illusory from the beginning since there is no possible source for a right. We are simply organisms created by time and chance. What we really have is abilities. We are able to do some things and not able to do others because of constraints either physical or legal. Legal constraints in such a system would be based on preference. Those in power currently prefer the right to kill our inconvenient offspring, and since those offspring are simply organisms not essentially different from any other - brief blips of life in the continuum of death - then why shouldn't we do so? For that matter why shouldn't we end any life that has become inconvenient or too expensive? We have the power to do so, and ultimately power combined with preference are all that matter. We can create pragmatic arguments to make ourselves feel better later on.

If on the other hand, man is not just the result of time and chance but a being created in the image of God, and if He alone is the source not only of Right and Wrong, then we should not end a life on any grounds except for those He has established.

Finally Torque, I don't sense you asked the question seriously, but the biblical teaching on the matter is that we are conceived in a fallen and sinful condition (Psalm 51:5 or Eph. 2:1-7) and therefore the answer is from the very beginning, we have a fallen nature and an inclination towards sin. However, that condition doesn't mean that we have a right to put anyone to death before they have committed a crime worthy of that sentance. Quite the opposite, we have a duty to preserve life, especially at its most vulnerable.

To quote John Calvin on the subject: "the foetus, though enclosed in the womb of its mother, is already a human being, and it is almost a monstrous crime to rob it of the life which it has not yet begun to enjoy. If it seems more horrible to kill a man in his own house than in a field, because a man’s house is his place of most secure refuge, it ought surely to be deemed more atrocious to destroy a foetus in the womb before it has come to light."

- SEAGOON
« Last Edit: November 02, 2005, 04:25:04 PM by Seagoon »
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams