Collision modeling

[Slash27]

Originally posted by Lye-El
So if you don't collide on your front end but the other guys sees a collision on his front end with you, You want to take damage from what would appear to you as out of nowhere. I bet nobody would complain about that.

That already happens. I have been colllided with several times from behind or below while never seeing him, and came up on the losing end of it. The thing about now is I get a message on who hit who. About 50% of the time I get collided with, Im the one that the goes down while he flies away. Same as if I saw him on my 'FE'. After reading all these posts I still dont have a clear idea on whats actually happening.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Slash27
That already happens. I have been colllided with several times from behind or below while never seeing him, and came up on the losing end of it. The thing about now is I get a message on who hit who. About 50% of the time I get collided with, Im the one that the goes down while he flies away. Same as if I saw him on my 'FE'. After reading all these posts I still dont have a clear idea on whats actually happening.

"Seeing" him does not refer to your eyes.  It refers to the environment your FE is tracking.  What it "sees" is the entire 3D environment, but it only renders one view of it for you to literally see.

[Slash27]

Makes sense Karnak, thanks.


 I have a question about the gunnery then.

But would you rather have someone fly by 100 yds off and *you* loose a wing cause on the other guys FE there happened a collision?

I dont know if this is an extreme example or if my 'FE' can be 100 yards away from an enemys 'FE' or not, but if they are even 20 yards apart, how are we shooting guys down? Is it coded that if I 'see' him and hit him, he takes damage regardless if his 'FE' is 20 yards further to the right? Im asking not bltching.

 Some one give me a quik run down on this 'Front End' thing and why is it called that.

[g00b]

hitech, Sir, will you answer a question for me? And I think it's the crux of the issue here.

First... If two planes collide, .i.e. they both get a collision message, shouldn't they both take equal damage? I frequently lose 1/2 an elevator or an aileron during high speed HO collisions while the other guys loses a wing or more. Second, how is it even possible to lose an aileron or elevator in a head on collisions without losing more substantial parts first?

I can probably dig up some video or find someone to do some collision testing if you'd like.

g00b

PS: Slash27, you got it. Everyone's front end displays our in game universe differently. Planes are NEVER where you see them, when viewed from that players perpective. When flying in tight formation with good pings all around, the distances displayed are about 20-30 yrds different. As in, I see you 50 yrds behind me. You see you are only 20 yrds behind me. This is the best case scenario. I'd guestimate in a good furball, rarely is a plane within 50 yrds on your FE as he is on his(or hers!). What you see on your FE is what happens. I.e. When you see your bullets hitting the enemy, they ARE taking damage. Sometimes you will see bullets flying by your aircraft apparently missing, when all of a sudden, you are going down in flames. This is because on their FE they saw the bullets hitting your plane. When you see your plane colliding with the enemy, you ARE colliding. If they don't see it, they take no damage. If they see a collision, but you do not, only they take collision damage. I hope that makes some sort of sence.

[Slash27]

Makes enough sense for me g00b:aok

If two planes collide, .i.e. they both get a collision message, shouldn't they both take equal damage?

 Thats the biggest issue. Should they both take catastrophic damage and go down? Will that only make things worse if two guys clip wing tips and explode?

[lasersailor184]

I think the collision messages are more there to just tell you that it has happened.  It really doesn't mean anything.

Slash, Hits, as well as collisions are monitored on your Front End, and then relayed to the server.

That's why if you're being shot at, you can hear the bullet pings, even though you see the bullets clearly missing.

However, it does not work the other way around.  Manytimes on your FE you'll see bullets pass through your plane.  These are meaningless.  The only ones that count are what is on his FE.



Remember, no one wins a collision, or loses a collision.  All that matters is what is seen.

If you get hit on your FE you are at fault for not avoiding the other guy.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Kermit de frog
I think some people don't wanna grow up and admit that they are wrong.

I agree that the collision model is great.  Sometimes the fella I'm shooting at will cut throttle and force me to either overshoot or ram him from behind.

He will break left or right and make himself a bigger target, and I'll will continue to shoot at him and then boom, I rammed him and only I will get the collision message because He may have rolled his plane at the last second and didn't actually collide with me on his end.

For the people complaing about receiving damage from messages where it only states that the other guy collided with you, you are truly ignoring the possiblity that the other guy SHOT YOUR ARSE before he collided.  After all, if he hit ya, most likely he was shooting at you right before the collision.

This reply is mostly for:
Norad
Watanna
Kev367th
killnu

Not ignoring anything, your ignoring a few things, in fact your just being ignorant full stop.

1) If a guy dives on me blows his pass and then pulls up misjudges his climb and climbs THROUGH me, why should I be the ONLY one to take damage.

2) If a guy misjudges his buff strafing run and rams me, why should I be the only one to take damage, hardly in a position to 'evade' in the tail gun position.

3) If I'm saddled up behind a con at 400, he warps behinds me, warps back forward again, and on the way goes though me why is it only me taking damage.

4) I've even been collided with by guys above me blowing their dive and going right through me without me ever seeing them, no pings, just a you "xxx has collided with you".

5) Even with the law of averages I should have 'won' at least one collision by now - STILL WAITING.

Maybe change the message -
"xxx has collided with you, you have low latency - SUCKER"

[edit] I have won ONE collision (thinking about it) but that was in the AH2 Beta. Guy dove in on my six, misjudged his speed, rear ended me, and died.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by Kev367th


1) If a guy dives on me blows his pass and then pulls up misjudges his climb and climbs THROUGH me, why should I be the ONLY one to take damage.

On his FE he flew up ahead of you not through you........... If you try to game this you will find it very difficult to achieve.

2) If a guy misjudges his buff strafing run and rams me, why should I be the only one to take damage, hardly in a position to 'evade' in the tail gun position.

This only occurs via head on and the circumstances given above. From all other angles total lag will cause collision to occur on his FE before impact is seen on yours

3) If I'm saddled up behind a con at 400, he warps behinds me, warps back forward again, and on the way goes though me why is it only me taking damage.

I too would like to know how the COAD treats warpage movement.

4) I've even been collided with by guys above me blowing their dive and going right through me without me ever seeing them, no pings, just a you "xxx has collided with you".

If that is the only message you got then you did not suffer collision damage. That is the message sent by an FE that suffers collision damage. It has to be accompanied with a system message "you have collided". If you do not see "you have collided" you have not suffered collision damage. (Unless you have seen the message once before in that flight) You have incurred damage via other means.

5) Even with the law of averages I should have 'won' at least one collision by now - STILL WAITING.

Maybe change the message -
"xxx has collided with you, you have low latency - SUCKER"

If you see a collision on your FE then you should not be a winner.

[Schatzi]

Originally posted by Kev367th

5) Even with the law of averages I should have 'won' at least one collision by now - STILL WAITING.

 

Im 100% sure you *have* won collisions. You just didnt *see* them as collisions....thats why you 'won' them in the first place.

[Simaril]

Sigh.


This discussion just never goes away.


Bottom line; If you do not come too close to your target, you will not collide.

Period.


If you're always colliding, you will always lose. On your computer, if you try a simple BFM move -- a yo-yo, a displacement roll, ANYTHING -- you can continue on the 6 and not collide. If you get him lined up at 300, start firing, and keep firing through  200 you will collide. If you are setting up the slashing snap shot and try to fly right under him at the pass through, you can easiily collide. If your FE gets the info about his evasive that happens to be in the direction of your extension, just as you rip past him -- you're going to hit him. And its realistic. In real life -- waht happens if you come too close to a terget that's independently piloted? If he does something unexpected, you can collide. SO, dont come too close!!!!

It is YOUR fault, not the computer's, not the internet's,  and not the coder's.



Others do collide with us -- and we blame those "victories" on the other guy augering, or stalling, or our good marksmanship as we sprayed through the merge. That fluttering 190 may have lost a collision, not just a stabilizer -- so dont feel victimized. Just dont get too close!!


I R teh dweeb -- and I hardly ever get collisions, maybe once or twice a tour. When they happen, its because I cut the spatial edge too closely. Its never my connection, because those few I get correlate with MY flight positioning mistakes -- not with my ping that day.




















Skuzzy or HT -- a question. If I am flying straight, and his avatar on MY front end banks hard into me -- will the system return a "You have collided" or a "He has collided message? In other words, will the computer text say I did it because it was on my front end, or will it say he did it because my plane was actually hit by his? I hope that for clarity's sake its the former --

[Simaril]

Maybe this would help:


A lot of your complaints have the implicit assumption that the game is happening on HTC's server, and that what you see is what "happens" in the game at large. With this logic, it would be entirely reasonable that a collision should be equally distributed between both planes. BUT -- In reality, the game only happens on YOUR computer.

Think of the HTC server as the AI, not the game. When you "log in", you're actually booting up the AI. The game isnt happening in Texas at all. Think that the major difference between AH2 and a boxed sim is this:

In this game,  AI is provided by volunteers all over the world on a real time basis. The server coordinates the AI messages, it doesnt "host" the game the way, say, counterstrike servers do.

Some AI providers (oh, like Leviathan) give really challenging opponents on your PC. Others (like 2weeker 7865437290) fly straight and let you shoot them. However, all the action happens on your computer, jsut as if you were playing a boxed sim. So, all collisions you see happen locally.

The wrinkle comes when you realize that 1) you are providing AI for everyone else, so your messages run to the server too; and 2) the game system tries to smooth out the unavoidable delays (in update times spread out all over the world) be "filling in the gaps" on the fly. So you may see things that didnt actually happen, because the "AI" had a net induced hiccup.

The wrinkles mean that your collision death may be invisible to another player who saw your plane in the position it held a half second before -- WHICH MEANS A 75-150 yard displacement. (300 mph = 150 yards per second).


The moral is simple -- if you dont want to get hit, stay out of the imaginary, 150 yard bubble that includes everyplace his plane could show up in the next 0.5-1.0 second.

[Kev367th]

All very good suggestion, but wuth a few caveats -
a) The AH2 gunnery model requires you to get closer than Ah1 (remember the 'I keep missing threads' from way back )
b) Kinda hard to stay out of an imaginary bubble in a buff when guys are attacking you.

[pigface]

I dont know about y'all, but whenever I see a report on the TV tube thats about ANY midair colision, betwen a small/large plane, small/small plane, plane/helo, or any combination of jets, they all die.

So, since both planes eventually get a message, make them both crash to the ground, and no one get the credit. Having no-credit will definately take the "using it as a weapon". This wil just result in some chastizing, but as I see CH 200, that is the norm anyway. Maybe you can make the "You colided with" public.. so otheres will see who the rammers are. If you need to you can make is a MASS thing. Meaning that a plane with smaller mass takes proportionatly more dammage than a larger plane. This will prevent the LA7 rammers into a B17.... a bit.

All this has nothign to do with the speed of the internet, which incedentally, does not travel at or near the speed of light. BTW, so you know, I wipe my ethernet cables down with high performance racing grease... that really helps too.

This looks like a goal to me:

but im not good enough to make things move faster than the speed of light.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by pigface
I dont know about y'all, but whenever I see a report on the TV tube thats about ANY midair colision, betwen a small/large plane, small/small plane, plane/helo, or any combination of jets, they all die.

So, since both planes eventually get a message, make them both crash to the ground, and no one get the credit. Having no-credit will definately take the "using it as a weapon". This wil just result in some chastizing, but as I see CH 200, that is the norm anyway. Maybe you can make the "You colided with" public.. so otheres will see who the rammers are. If you need to you can make is a MASS thing. Meaning that a plane with smaller mass takes proportionatly more dammage than a larger plane. This will prevent the LA7 rammers into a B17.... a bit.

All this has nothign to do with the speed of the internet, which incedentally, does not travel at or near the speed of light. BTW, so you know, I wipe my ethernet cables down with high performance racing grease... that really helps too.

This looks like a goal to me:

Pig, if people think they are using collsions "as a weapon" they are fooling themselves -- on the level of the guy whose "lucky rabbits foot" keeps him from getting hit by a drunk. Collisions happen on YOUR computer, so what the other guy does cant affect your collision unless he KNOWS what you're going to do before you do it -- and if he knows that, he'll shoot you down instead of ramming you.

Rams are annoying, but if you read the posts above it might be easier to understand whats happening in the program -- and thus how to prevent them. 99% of rams can be prevented if you fly smart, regardless of what the other guy does.  


And Pig, thnk a little more about the effects of your suggestion. I'm dogfighting you, and I pop on your six with lots of E after a vertical move. I drop in too close, though, an dit takes me too long to get the crosshairs right -- so I open fire at 150. By the time you're taking hits, I'mm too close, and I ram you. Menawhile, on your computer, you saw me above, guessed what i was going to do, and broke before I got to the 6. So, YOU see me 200 yards off your 9 o'clock flying away from you. You hear me get a couple pings, but missing wildly now, and you figure you broke jsut in time to get clear of the guns.

Current system: I die, you get what amounts to a proxy.
Pig system: we both die, and you get punished even though you made a move that burned me.

Which seems more fair?





(The exceptions -- unpreventable rams -- happen when you're flying straight and the opponent maneuvers, based on 1 second old information about where you are, right into the space you're occupying on YOUR  computer. In a  buff, i guess teh only way to prevent it is to kil him before he gets that close. In a fighter, you're sunk. I guess this rare unpreventable collision is the prioce to pay for a workable game.)

[slimpikn]

Seems to me the fix would be if one person sees a collision, it should send that data to the host which would report it to the other guys FE. If either guy sees collision, both should get damage, whether it's from the FE or the server (in the case of the guy who didn't "see" it). This would prevent guys with high lag from doing HO's because they know they can pull up at the last second and their FE would not "see" a collision but the other guy would. Far fewer guys would HO if they knew that a collision on either FE would be a collision for both no matter what.