Author Topic: Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates  (Read 2332 times)

Offline Karnak

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2005, 11:27:15 AM »
I don't consider 10-44 a "fudge" for the Fw190D-9.  A "fudge" is using an aircraft before it, or one very like it, was in service.  For example using the Bf109G-10 we have now for D-Day settings is a "fudge".

If you list the Fw190D-9 as a 1-45 aircraft and then it gets used for a 10-44 setup, and it will, there will be at least one person who will use the list as ammunition against whoever did the setup so that their chosen side can have some slight gain in advantage.  Except in the case of very significant performace differences it is best to just go with the combat entrance of the given model.  Only when the performance difference is too extreme to be considered should boost levels determine the service date.
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Offline 1K3

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2005, 11:59:20 AM »
:O

The Dora should be perked! (low production and as rare as 152s)

:)


i also think 190A_6 should be added and AH 190A-8 would need a bit more engine engine performance (hmmm BMW 801 TS?) so that it can match all aliied aircraft in 1944
« Last Edit: November 01, 2005, 12:02:37 PM by 1K3 »

Offline Kev367th

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2005, 12:30:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
For the 'list' accurate dates should be given (as best as possible). It is then left up to the CM / designer to decide to what degree of fudging is acceptable for his event etc...

If we start off the list by 'fudging' the limits to such 'fudging' will get stretched even more when CMs start looking at substitutions.

Let's just get an 'accurate list' and be done with it...


Agreed.
Therefore please amend the 190-D9 MW-50 ata1.8 (as we have) 'service date'.

Leave it up to the CMs etc to decide how much leeway/fudging they are willing to have.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2005, 12:35:49 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Karnak

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2005, 12:54:36 PM »
So, what is the werk number on the Fw190D-9 we have in AH and when did it enter service?  Can't have it any earlier than the one it's modeling is based on.  That would be "wrong".


You guys are being silly.  It is an Fw190D-9, an end of war aircraft.  Nitpicking it down to the last week or whatever of WWII is just being petulant.
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Offline Kev367th

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2005, 12:58:54 PM »
No, just being accurate for the model with given engine specs in AH2.

Could argue it's the price you pay for having the ultimate boosted late war 190.

For exactly the same reasons the Spit 14 will probably have to amended as it is supposed to go to 21lbs.

Strange its current date is 9/44 despite the fact Spit XIV flew D-Day and before.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2005, 01:11:44 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Squire

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2005, 01:00:20 PM »
Its Mr Forks list, im just a helping hand.

I would go with:

Hurricane IIC 4-41
190D-9 9-44
Mosquito VI (PAC) 11-43

From what I read above.

...As for the D-9, obviuusly my previous point has been met with a stone throwing mob of "varient hooligans". I am now asking for teargas to be deployed, and the security forces to issued riot gear. You have been warned! :)

-Seriously, its just a round and round about stuff thats not that relevent. It is a D-9, it does not go 475mph, so relax. 9-44.

190A-5, ya ok, leave it as it is maybe and let the designers sort it out .
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Offline Guppy35

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2005, 01:01:58 PM »
Since we're not 'fudging" on planes, then I'd suggest changing the Spit XIV from September 44.  That's a huge "fudge" since the Spit XIV was operational far earlier then this.

Just using the logbook of the 91 Squadron pilot that I have, he was over France in a Spit XIV on April 26, 1944 and 91 was not the first with XIVs.  They were doing sweeps up until they were pulled off them to deal with the V-1s.  So to use the V-1 as an excuse not to have the XIV operational before September 44 sure looks like a 'fudge' to me
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Offline Bruno

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2005, 01:31:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Trend here - push the allied aircraft service date beyond their original service date, put the LW planes before their in service date.


Quit your whining...

You only started on the D-9 because of what was posted on the Typhoon...

I don't fly the D-9 so I don't really care what date Fork chooses for his list, Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan... It's only in the interest of maintaining a consistent position that I arrived at Jan '45. As others have pointed out the D-9 will still be fighting the exact same planes, whether its comes in at Sept '44 or Jan '45. Not to mention what Naudet says about the 002 tests and the engines under performing. Which isn't hard to imagine given that this D-9 was set up for multiple 'WEP' and fuel types.

The facts are with the D-9 we are only talking about a net gain of around 12 mph jumping from 1.7 ata @ 1900PS to 1.78 ata @ 2100PS. That's quite a difference between a 7lb boost Typhoon and a 9, 11 or 13lb 4 prop-blade variant. Especially, as it relates to its service entry date. The safe bet here is just to assume its 9 lb 4 blade-prop variant and have in come in at '43. There's no conspiracy to push back the entry dates of all allied planes. It's up to who ever compiles the list to choose whatever date he wants.

I didn't supply any of the dates for the Spitfires, if Guppy says earlier for the current XIV variant then so be it. So who is it that is pushing back allied planes? Many of my contributions to the is thread have pushed back the dates for some LW planes. Also, this list was started many years ago by a guy who was in an Allied / Spitfire squad, blame him. Most of those numbers come from him and his research. Most of the guys supplying dates in these threads fly Allied planes, many fly Spitfires...

You always look for the 'conspiracy'. HTC hates 'Spitfires' and apparently so does everyone else...

Offline Guppy35

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2005, 01:47:35 PM »
Just to clarify on the Spit XIV.  It appears that 610 and 91 both were flying sweeps over France from the beginning of May 44 so I'd use that date instead of September 44.  It's only a couple of squadons, along with 322 squadron that converted to XIVs at the time, but they were definately operational in squadon strength over France in May of 44 flying Sweeps and also Rhubarbs.

Again using the 91 pilots logbook, he notes sweeps to Reims, Dungeness, Calais, Abbeville, Cherbourg and a Ranger SE of Paris as well as bomber escorts and then covering the D-Day landings with lots of ground strafing with mentions of Caen, Brussels, Ostend etc.

As an aside, the logbook is of the pilot who downed the first V-1 in daylight which was June 16, 1944.
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Offline Squire

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2005, 01:58:48 PM »
I will give my opinion on the so called "fudging" thing. This goes back to an old arguement in some CT and Event circles about "no subbing a/c", and so two camps evolved: one camp advocated substitutions that made sense, the other camp was rabidly opposed to any subs at all...

And so the same with "lists", we had a grp advocating a service list that was strictly based on the exact sub types involved (eg. A6M5b), and those that wanted a more "generic list" to cover area where the planseset was small.

As an ex-CM and a fellow who participted in many events I am firmly in the "generic brand" camp.

Imho, a strict, sub type specific, uncompromising list is perhaps interesting to look at....but is also usless on many occasions as a tool, which is what its for. This is where people get lost, the list is not to just look at and say "gee wiz look at that date", its supposed to be of some help to Event organisers, and with the limited set in AH, I think "sensible" substitutions need to be used.

And so, any list needs to reflect that.

As for "service dates" they sometimes reflect deployment to a specfic combat area...rather than a strict 1st in service date. Example the Spit XIV. That is not a "fudged date" its a "deployed to Holland" date, I did not just get "9-44" out of a hat. The F4U-1 of 2-43, thats also a deployed date, which is later than its strict in service date.

The dates are not "accusations" that a certain ac saw no combat at all, prior to the date involved, but are sometimes...sometimes I said, a date that perhaps reflects a more reasonable time frame for sqn service.

But, its not my list. Mr Fork is the one who will decide what he wants to do with it.

I may publish my own list, who knows.

In the immortal words of Dirty Harry "I may just make my own dead pool, and put you on it". :D
« Last Edit: November 01, 2005, 02:07:42 PM by Squire »
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Offline Kev367th

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2005, 02:12:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
Quit your whining...

You only started on the D-9 because of what was posted on the Typhoon...

I don't fly the D-9 so I don't really care what date Fork chooses for his list, Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan... It's only in the interest of maintaining a consistent position that I arrived at Jan '45. As others have pointed out the D-9 will still be fighting the exact same planes, whether its comes in at Sept '44 or Jan '45. Not to mention what Naudet says about the 002 tests and the engines under performing. Which isn't hard to imagine given that this D-9 was set up for multiple 'WEP' and fuel types.

The facts are with the D-9 we are only talking about a net gain of around 12 mph jumping from 1.7 ata @ 1900PS to 1.78 ata @ 2100PS. That's quite a difference between a 7lb boost Typhoon and a 9, 11 or 13lb 4 prop-blade variant. Especially, as it relates to its service entry date. The safe bet here is just to assume its 9 lb 4 blade-prop variant and have in come in at '43. There's no conspiracy to push back the entry dates of all allied planes. It's up to who ever compiles the list to choose whatever date he wants.

I didn't supply any of the dates for the Spitfires, if Guppy says earlier for the current XIV variant then so be it. So who is it that is pushing back allied planes? Many of my contributions to the is thread have pushed back the dates for some LW planes. Also, this list was started many years ago by a guy who was in an Allied / Spitfire squad, blame him. Most of those numbers come from him and his research. Most of the guys supplying dates in these threads fly Allied planes, many fly Spitfires...

You always look for the 'conspiracy'. HTC hates 'Spitfires' and apparently so does everyone else...


Sorry Bruno, I had removed that part probably while you were replying.
Realised it was not needed.

You did have a valid point regarding dates though -
If you put it at 9-44 then whats to stop a CM thinking, OK so we can squeeze it in for a 7-44 scenario, thats not a 2 month fudge, but at least a 6 month fudge by then.
Start with accurate dates, let the CMs do their own fudging, rather than compound an already incorrect date.

Wasn't implying you supplied Spit dates, wasn't intended that way.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2005, 02:17:02 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Karnak

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2005, 02:26:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
If you put it at 9-44 then whats to stop a CM thinking, OK so we can squeeze it in for a 7-44 scenario, thats not a 2 month fudge, but at least a 6 month fudge by then.

Because they don't fudge to times when the type wasn't there.  By nitpicking the particulars of which D-9 it is you are introducing the fudge room.  In addition you are using criteria that are not universally available for all aircraft types.  The hard binary of "Before this date there were no aircraft of x type and after it there were" is a much more solid base on which to stand and say "X cannot be used as it wasn't there for another two months."
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Offline Guppy35

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2005, 02:28:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Squire,

10-41 is still way to late.  Stanford Tuck flew Hurri IICs in combat, the moved to Spit Vs, was sent to the USA, then came back and flew Spit Vs more and was shot down and captured in Jan, 1942.  Oct, '41 doesn't give enough time.


Just saw this one.

Hurri IIC went operational in May 1941.  By October 1941 57 home based RAF Squadrons were flying Hurri IIs, usually a mix of Hurri IIB and IIC.

Stanford Tuck's bird was a IIB if memory serves. Not a cannon armed bird.  He was on Spits again by the time the IIc showed up.
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Offline Kev367th

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2005, 02:48:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Because they don't fudge to times when the type wasn't there.  By nitpicking the particulars of which D-9 it is you are introducing the fudge room.  In addition you are using criteria that are not universally available for all aircraft types.  The hard binary of "Before this date there were no aircraft of x type and after it there were" is a much more solid base on which to stand and say "X cannot be used as it wasn't there for another two months."


Well have it your way, obviously accuracy gets sacrificed for the sake including 'x' aircraft in a scenario.
"X" cannot be used prior to Jan 1945 because "X" aircraft didn't exist in that configuration prior to Jan 1945.

Call it whine if you will, but until you apply a COMMON set of rules for all aircraft (allied and axis), instead of selective rules for each side, just to fit specific aircraft into scenarios, the whole thing stinks of double standards.

As I said I expect the Spit 14 date to change to the earliest it used 21lbs, not its current (inacurrate for even our present XIV) Sept 44.
Or do you feel comfortable dating a Spit XIV @21lbs at the service introduction date of the XIV - approx May 44 (maybe slightly earlier).

Check this out -
Spit XIV
Trials Feb 44
Equipped/Operational - March 44, not Sept 44

21lbs boost July 44
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no610orb.jpg

Of course how many do you need to class as being "in service"?

I would agree it's not always clear cut, but in the cases it is, the 'proper' date should be used. Other unclear cases a general concensus is usually agreed on.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2005, 03:06:45 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Bruno

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2005, 03:05:03 PM »
Quote
If you put it at 9-44 then whats to stop a CM thinking, OK so we can squeeze it in for a 7-44 scenario, thats not a 2 month fudge, but at least a 6 month fudge by then.
Start with accurate dates, let the CMs do their own fudging, rather than compound an already incorrect date.


I agree 100% with you here, let's just get the dates right and leave the fudging arguments for later....