Author Topic: Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates  (Read 2437 times)

Offline Kev367th

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #60 on: November 01, 2005, 03:07:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
I agree 100% with you here, let's just get the dates right and leave the fudging arguments for later....


It's then end of the world, we agree on something (j/k).
Gotta start with an accurate date. Not a 'convenient' one.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2005, 03:11:09 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Bruno

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #61 on: November 01, 2005, 03:18:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Because they don't fudge to times when the type wasn't there.  By nitpicking the particulars of which D-9 it is you are introducing the fudge room.  In addition you are using criteria that are not universally available for all aircraft types.  The hard binary of "Before this date there were no aircraft of x type and after it there were" is a much more solid base on which to stand and say "X cannot be used as it wasn't there for another two months."


Sure they do, the Typhoon stood in for a Beaufighter (extreme example but relevant nonetheless)...

We also had the P-38L in a late '43 bomber scenario/event while the LW flew only G-6s and A-5s. There were F4U-Ds facing just A6M2s in the CT etc... (axis bias showing in those 3 examples but what do you want from me..?) :p

I can go on but for every guy that sees and argues that the D-9 can't be used in a Dec '44 event (one month early for 1.8 ata) you will get another that will see Sept '44 and argue 'why not squeeze it in a bit early like August'.

The list above should give as accurate a date as possible for the variant / type in question and the let CM / designer make the decision and argument whether to 'fudge' or 'not to fudge' as he sees fit. An argument will ensue which ever way he swings, there's no need to argue about it here.

Offline Squire

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #62 on: November 01, 2005, 03:23:30 PM »
"There were F4U-Ds facing just A6M2s in the CT"

BUAHAHAHA!

Must have been before my time bud. We couldnt get a PAC setup even done most weeks.

Every Solomons setup I ever saw featured the N1K2 in 1943 "to make it all fair".  

Your memory is failing with age my friend.  :rolleyes:

...and now back to to our regular scheduled program, already in progress... :)
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Offline mw

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #63 on: November 01, 2005, 03:28:32 PM »
Hello Gents:

The first Spitfire XIV operational sorties occurred 8 January 1944.  The operations were mostly boring convoy patrols and defensive scrambles through February.  610 Squadron could field a full squadron by February, although they were still short a spare or two.  Things heated up in March when 91 Squadron went operational with thier XIVs.  The first air combat I know about occurred on 7 March 1944.  See under Combat Reports here.  By April  610, 91, and 322 Squadrons were  all operational.

Mike
« Last Edit: November 01, 2005, 03:38:40 PM by mw »

Offline Kev367th

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2005, 04:23:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mw
Hello Gents:

The first Spitfire XIV operational sorties occurred 8 January 1944.  The operations were mostly boring convoy patrols and defensive scrambles through February.  610 Squadron could field a full squadron by February, although they were still short a spare or two.  Things heated up in March when 91 Squadron went operational with thier XIVs.  The first air combat I know about occurred on 7 March 1944.  See under Combat Reports here.  By April  610, 91, and 322 Squadrons were  all operational.

Mike


Nice Mike, kinda puts the squish on the Sept 44 intially listed.
To be fair though if I'm gonna argue Jan 45 for D9 1.8ata we need an "in service" date for the Spit XIV at 21lbs also, assuming Pyro goes through with his orignal plans.
hope ya have one.
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Offline Guppy35

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #65 on: November 01, 2005, 04:37:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mw
Hello Gents:

The first Spitfire XIV operational sorties occurred 8 January 1944.  The operations were mostly boring convoy patrols and defensive scrambles through February.  610 Squadron could field a full squadron by February, although they were still short a spare or two.  Things heated up in March when 91 Squadron went operational with thier XIVs.  The first air combat I know about occurred on 7 March 1944.  See under Combat Reports here.  By April  610, 91, and 322 Squadrons were  all operational.

Mike


Nothing really tells me they were over France prior to the last bit of April 44.  The logbook I have is Bruce Moffett's and he was A Flight CO of 91 Squadron during the transition time from the XII to the XIV and was with them until August 44 when they transitioned to IXs.

His first flight was in RB188 on March 2, 1944. with the month being filled with "air tests", "air to air" firing, "Air to ground" firing, height climbs, flight and squadron formation flying etc.  On his first height climb in a Spit XIV he took NH701 DL-A to 42,000 feet.  This was March 15, 1944.  His first Operational flight in the XIV was April 25, 1944 when he went on a 'recce' to "Somme-Dieppe" and "shot down a barrage balloon in flames."

91 was declared operational on the XIV April 23, 1944

First XIV lost over France was May 28, 1944 when a 610 squadron XIV went down to flak and a forced landing.   I've always thought it ironic that the Spit XII drivers were sent out the next day to try and find the wreck and shoot it up.  Terry Spencer even mentions it in his diary for the 29th.
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Offline Bruno

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2005, 04:40:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Squire
"There were F4U-Ds facing just A6M2s in the CT"

BUAHAHAHA!

Must have been before my time bud. We couldnt get a PAC setup even done most weeks.

Every Solomons setup I ever saw featured the N1K2 in 1943 "to make it all fair".  

Your memory is failing with age my friend.  :rolleyes:

...and now back to to our regular scheduled program, already in progress... :)


I had to make it 'sound good' in order to emphasis my point. Not quite an 'exaggeration' more like 'artistic license'...

:aok

Offline Bruno

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2005, 04:46:17 PM »
So Fork can edit:

FW 190D-9 (1.78 / 1.80 ata @ 2100 PS B4 + MW-50) = Jan '45

What are the other aircraft / dates?

Offline Squire

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #68 on: November 01, 2005, 04:53:15 PM »
"*****Deployed to Holland 9-44 for 1st real non ADGB duty (anti V-1 raids). 1-44 was operational with 610 Sqn in Britain."

From the previous thread re the Spit XIV.

Please stop posting info about the XIV in Jan 44 like this is "news" to us (its not), you guys have not been following along obviously, and are covering old ground already discussed.

1-45 for the D-9? Im surprised but ok.
4-41 for the Hurricane IIC
11-43 for PAC Mosquito
Either 1-44 or 9-44 for the XIV, its Mr Forks call, I made my case, you have made yours, he has the info.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2005, 05:09:15 PM by Squire »
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Offline Kev367th

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #69 on: November 01, 2005, 05:07:02 PM »
I give up -

Rename thread:
"Service Dates Depending On What They Happened To Be Doing At The Time"

Suppose it's irrlevant theres a combat report from Mar 44 of 2 XIV's v 2 190s.

Pretty sure all sorites in the XIV prior to Sep 44 were 'real' to the pilots.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2005, 05:14:50 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Karnak

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2005, 05:20:02 PM »
The Typhoon for the Beaufighter is a notorious mistake and they learned from it.

The F4U-1D vs A6M2 never happened.  It was the A6M2 vs F4U-1, which is accurate for the year it was portraying, but no fun for the Japanese side who lacked any of their intermediate aircraft.  I remember it well because I shot down one of the eight F4U-1s that the A6M2s got before they removed the F4U-1 as imbalanced.
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Offline Squire

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2005, 05:28:27 PM »
I do so remember our love fests re the PAC CT setups, makes me all nostalgic...

I think I had a marathon session with Brady over the Ki-61. As I recall being right all the time was a burden on me. :aok
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Offline mw

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2005, 06:02:07 PM »
Hello Guppy:  My copy of 91 Squadron ORB shows they flew thier first operational sorties with the XIVs on 12.3.44.  Rawlings concurs if I remember correctly.  I'll be happy to send you a copy of the relevant pages, contact me off line if interested.  My apologies to anyone offended by my sharing of those tidbits of info.  It was not my intention to step on anyone's toes, rather merely to share some info that I've learned with what I thought were like minded prop heads.



Mike
« Last Edit: November 01, 2005, 06:12:21 PM by mw »

Offline Guppy35

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2005, 06:21:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mw
Hello Guppy:  My copy of 91 Squadron ORB shows they flew thier first operational sorties with the XIVs on 12.3.44.  Rawlings concurs if I remember correctly.  I'll be happy to send you a copy of the relevant pages, contact me off line if interested.  My apologies to anyone offended by my sharing of those tidbits of info.  It was not my intention to step on anyone's toes, rather merely to share some info that I've learned with what I thought were like minded prop heads.



Mike


Hi Mike,

Moffett's logbook for March 12, 1944 has him flying a sector recce on one flight and flying 'air to air' on the other.  First flight in RB177 DL-J and second in NH701 DL-A.  The 12th was the day F/S Sayer was lost.  It was their first "operational" mission when two XIVs were scrambled to try and escort in a B24 that in fact needed no help.  Sayer crashed in RB188 in bad weather near Turnhouse.  Moffett makes mention of this in his logbook as well.

I think it's my mistake in considering the Operational flights over France as when they really got going.  Flying out of Drem in Scotland while transitioning to the XIV, just isn't the same thing :)

Again using Moffett's logbook, he was 'scrambled" in an XII DL-C on March 25, 1944 so they still had a few of those around while they were transitioning to the XIV.  He differentiates between the XII and XIV specifically too, so it's not a typo.  His last flights in an XII were in DL-T which he flew 4 days in April, on the 17th, 18th, 20th and twice on the 21st.

All good fun learning about this stuff and I for one appreciate your contributions a lot :)
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Offline Squire

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Update#2 - Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates
« Reply #74 on: November 01, 2005, 07:42:05 PM »
Ya I didnt mean my reply to  sound like that MW. Your input is welcome.

All the relevent info is there re the XIV now, and the list makers can do what they want with the info.

I could see a 3-44 date being a reasonable compromise between 1-44 1st ops and a 9-44 deployment to the Continent.
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