Author Topic: Proof from HTC that Hispanos are accurate. plz dont ignore  (Read 9504 times)

Offline AKDejaVu

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Proof from HTC that Hispanos are accurate. plz dont ignore
« Reply #105 on: December 18, 2000, 02:26:00 PM »
 
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Once again. The ability of the Hispano to kill or cripple in AH at 900 on the recievers FE is not really up for debate. It happend infront of everyone at the Con.

You mean this time?

 
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The 2 vs 2 duel at the con was ended when Drex tore Ripsnort appart at 800 plus in a p38.

What gets me is how the number magically builds.  Well, 900 is very close to 800... though not as close to 1400... but the guy said he was actually farther away than that...

As for the gameplay issues... I don't necessarily disagree.. but that isn't what this thread is about.  I am not a big fan of "ooo... an anti-hispano thread... lets hop on" menatallity I see here.

The whine was about if Hispanos got RL 900 yard kills in WW2.  Dunno if they did.  I do,however, seriously doubt that it was done by a pilot after getting killed 4 times that day already.

Anyone know why some pilots were more accurate than others in WW2?  Statistics showed that kids that grew up hunting had a much better understanding of lead and were more experienced.  Why would that matter?... well imagine if every one of them got to practice 1000 times a month against real moving targets.  How much of a difference would that make?

The magic formula in all of this is practice.  The 20mm can go 1000 meeters.  Any part of arguing that it can't hit at that range has to revolve around the pilot.  It is possible.. it should be possible and a pilot needs to consider that option.

AKDejaVu



Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #106 on: December 18, 2000, 02:38:00 PM »
Drex didn't 'tear me apart'...he pinged one of my engines at (D900 on my FE) and apparently he was really spraying...after he finished my engine, he said he didn't have much ammo left for finishing me off, but he did.

Offline Jigster

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« Reply #107 on: December 18, 2000, 05:18:00 PM »
btw did you notice he did no damage at that distance?

I'm not advocating anything is wrong.

But those hits are possible, which is what was asked for. Same with the gun thingies. Never said they were wrong but they *ARE* different.

Offline Jigster

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« Reply #108 on: December 18, 2000, 10:27:00 PM »
Btw this has yet to be addressed:

From Verm's post:
That adds up to four 20's equaling twelve 50 calibers, judged by those standards. Of course you have other advantages of the 20. You have much greater penetration of armor. The 20 will go thru 3/4 inch of armor at 500 yards, while the 50 cal, will go through only .43 inchs.

Okay if this is taken as a vaild source for gun reliability let's use it for armor too.

Panzer IV H armor:

Front Armor = 82.0
Side Armor = 30.0
Rear Armor = 21.0
Front Turret = 80.0
Side Turret = 33.0
Rear Turret = 30.0
Top Armor = 10.0

According to the book, at 500 yards (with no ammo specified) it can penetrate 19mm of armor.

So looking at that, the Panzer IV is invulnerable to the Hispano with the exception of the roof armor of the engine starting at the turrent ring and ending at the grill hinge.


Not to instigate or anything, but seriously, if you going to use a source for proving motives in one area, why not use it for the rest? Confirmation bias?  

It's no biggie, but still...


Offline SKurj

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« Reply #109 on: December 18, 2000, 11:46:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by Jigster:
Btw this has yet to be addressed:

From Verm's post:
That adds up to four 20's equaling twelve 50 calibers, judged by those standards. Of course you have other advantages of the 20. You have much greater penetration of armor. The 20 will go thru 3/4 inch of armor at 500 yards, while the 50 cal, will go through only .43 inchs.

Okay if this is taken as a vaild source for gun reliability let's use it for armor too.

Panzer IV H armor:

Front Armor = 82.0
Side Armor = 30.0
Rear Armor = 21.0
Front Turret = 80.0
Side Turret = 33.0
Rear Turret = 30.0
Top Armor = 10.0

According to the book, at 500 yards (with no ammo specified) it can penetrate 19mm of armor.

So looking at that, the Panzer IV is invulnerable to the Hispano with the exception of the roof armor of the engine starting at the turrent ring and ending at the grill hinge.


Not to instigate or anything, but seriously, if you going to use a source for proving motives in one area, why not use it for the rest? Confirmation bias?  

It's no biggie, but still...


Just curious, but these penetration figures are 1 round fired...   If i fired 100 rounds and they all landed within say a 3-4ft square, do ya think they would fight through armor thicker than 3/4"  ?

AKskurj


Offline Jigster

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« Reply #110 on: December 19, 2000, 03:03:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by SKurj:
Just curious, but these penetration figures are 1 round fired...   If i fired 100 rounds and they all landed within say a 3-4ft square, do ya think they would fight through armor thicker than 3/4"  ?

AKskurj


As far as real life goes, using AH for a model (For mixed belt purposes, on a plane set up on a gunnery range), let's say 500 yrds,  2 AP + 2 HE + 1 T(AP) belts so you figure the 40 HE rounds are going to be pretty much useless (different trajectory, impact fuse, no penetration, standard Mk 26 Hispano M2 shell) That leaves you with 60 AP rounds. At 500 yards, let's say they hit pretty much on at convergence and the guns are on a very stable platform, so 75% of the rounds land within that square. Thats 45 rounds.

Not taking into consideration armor slope, attack angle, and armor angle to the guns (say it's a chassis sitting broadside level with the guns) we have a prefect gun solution so to speak. More tedious stuff: Depending on how the belt is loaded, the rounds are not going to arrive at once, as some stray outside the square, the gap of HE impacting and popping between the next AP round, etc.

Therefore it's not nearly as many rounds landing on target as it would seem, and thats under Ideal conditions. With enough firing the armor could definately be breeched, but given the nature of how a plane must attack armor, multiple passes on the same section of armor is not a very viable option.

Once you bring a moving plane into the equation, the plane is always going to come in at an off angle to the armor (unless he dives straight down, again not a very good idea) and the rounds are not going to be nearly as concentrated as the move through convergence, etc. So that, and armor slope are most likely going to cut between 45% and 95% of the remaining shells depending on the angle. So let's say  20 rounds actually penetrate. In general the figures like 3/4 inch give a decent margin so the round actually does some damage after it penetrates (meaning it can go through more but will be so slow it won't do diddly). These aren't like large AP rounds, that explode after penetration...they have to do their damage based on speed, and mass.



Offline Jigster

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« Reply #111 on: December 19, 2000, 03:07:00 AM »
Er rereading the question, and taking into consideration the damage margin, if 100 AP rounds are fire and hit within that square, depending on armor quality it's most likey going to go at least an inch or more, leaving all other things out.

Pepino

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« Reply #112 on: December 19, 2000, 04:34:00 AM »
I don't usually whine about anything but HOers and Chute Killers. I would like to put in front that I trust Htc and I give them the credit of doing the right thing at each moment. But in this particular issue we should (IMHO) take account of a couple of things.

I trust that all hard data on Hispano's ballistics and damage power has been taken into account, but being such a fabulous weapon (as its numbers suggests) none of its drawbacks has been modelled. I have read on this forum that Hispanos jam easyly. I have read on this forum that pilots risk melting the barrell if they shoot for a long time. If these were real concerns for the Air Force, and were real issues on a real usage of the weapon, again IMHO, they should be modelled. Let's put it the other way: take another weapon with outstanding reliability and lack of firepower. Would you agree to have this handicap not modelled?. On a factual ground, It is a fact that if you hold the trigger too long, you will damage your cannon beyond repair. And it is another fact that Hispanos jammed easyly. Those are unmodelled aspects. I think they should because if you think that we should stick to reality as much as possible, both gunjams and overheating should be taken into acoount. If you think that gameplay should have the edge on this particular issue, the current situation affects deeply the game. Spray 'n pray and HO are most common tactics for C-Hog riders (with a few noticeable exceptions that we all know). I don't feel this is the right way to play this game. AH don't deserve this. Quake does.

Pepe.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #113 on: December 19, 2000, 09:34:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
What gets me is how the number magically builds.  Well, 900 is very close to 800... though not as close to 1400... but the guy said he was actually farther away than that...

As for the gameplay issues... I don't necessarily disagree.. but that isn't what this thread is about.  I am not a big fan of "ooo... an anti-hispano thread... lets hop on" menatallity I see here.

The whine was about if Hispanos got RL 900 yard kills in WW2.  Dunno if they did.  I do,however, seriously doubt that it was done by a pilot after getting killed 4 times that day already.

Anyone know why some pilots were more accurate than others in WW2?  Statistics showed that kids that grew up hunting had a much better understanding of lead and were more experienced.  Why would that matter?... well imagine if every one of them got to practice 1000 times a month against real moving targets.  How much of a difference would that make?

The magic formula in all of this is practice.  The 20mm can go 1000 meeters.  Any part of arguing that it can't hit at that range has to revolve around the pilot.  It is possible.. it should be possible and a pilot needs to consider that option.

AKDejaVu


So you dont need to see film any more..now you are busy rationalizing the realism of the long hits.You have changed tacts from this is impossible to why it is reasonable in one post. I gather from that that my post was effective.
RA RA RA
There are many enviromental differences between the real world your farm boys had to fly in and the AH world. We have a much simpler task. Some of those differences made 900 yard shots extremely unlikly in their world. People in AH-land open up at those ranges in certain planes all the time. They quite often have some serios effect on the enemy. Certainly to ignore such fire can be a mistake.
Like I said previosly, Rip would not have been so passive at the controls at 750 yards. He would not have been so passive at the controls if he never knew the exact range to the bad guy either. But knowing drex was at 900 he flew like he had seperated. But he hadnt.. Should he have been is the issue. One of the best pilots in the game was willing to bet that he could win the game at 900 yards if he spent enough ammo(1/5th of the 20mm that a hog c has). I trust his judgment over whether such shots are possible.

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #114 on: December 19, 2000, 10:50:00 AM »
Pongo,

Anyone that disputes that a Hispano shouldn't be able to kill a plane at 900 yards is wrong.

Anyone that claims the only reason he was killed at 900 yards is because the guns are too uber is wrong.

In every one of these situations, a pilot was aiming those cannons at the enemy.  How does the pilot know exactly what the range of his cannons/guns are?  How does a pilot know how much to lead in virtually every situation?  Is it cannon uberness or is it experience.

This game introduces anomolies that make arguments like you presented flawed.  You know... "I have looked into the Hispanos war record every where I could for a year. All I am conviced of is that it was much better then 8 brownings. There is nothing to indicate that I can find that it was the world beater we have here."

The use of history to evaluate performance is flawed in AH.  The use of history to justify arguments in AH is flawed.  Historically, the pilots did not get the kind of experience that we do.  They learned from every engagement they survived... but didn't learn anything when they died.  They were punished when they did dangerous threatening things... IF they survived.  There was accountability for pushing things too far.

In AH you only learn when flying in the MA.  The things you learn over and over in the MA are carried into any battle you have in any arena.  There really is no cure.

AKDejaVu

Offline Hooligan

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« Reply #115 on: December 19, 2000, 12:02:00 PM »
This discussion about Drex's 800 yard shot is getting really silly.  He was spraying 4 x.50s and maybe a Hispano (if he had ammo left for it).  He was firing at 5 .50 rounds for every Hispano round that went out.  .50s also have better ballistics so it is likely that he hit only with the .50s.

Here is a quote from Mike Spick's "Allied Fighter Aces of World War II.", Pg 120:

 
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Two Me's dropped on me, but I did a quick wing-over and got on one's tail.  He saw me coming and tried to climb away.  I figured he must be about 800 yards away and when I got him in the sights I let go of him.  It was a full deflection shot, and I had to make plenty of allowance for cannon-drop.  I gave him a three-second burst, smack on his starboard flank, and got him in the glycol tank.  He started to stream the stuff, leaving a long white trail of smoke.

The pilot in this case, George Beurling achieved 31 kills total and possibly flew a couple of hundred sorties.  Lots of players in this game have literally made thousands of kills and flown thousands of sorties.  Clearly a lot of AH pilots have had more opportunity to hone their skills than George Beurling had.  And if he could make these rare long range shots, then good pilots in this game should also be able to do so.

Hooligan

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #116 on: December 19, 2000, 06:22:00 PM »
Deja.
Hope you dont hit your but with your head as you circle in this argument.
Hooligan can you make a 800 yard 90 Degree deflection shot with a 3 second burst from a Spit Vb? Ok try it with imperfect guns and imperfect ammo in the blazing sun of the Med in a dirty dusty battle worn Spitfire. Ok just for fun add dysentry and the hostility of your squadron mates.
I dont think the shooting ability of Buzz Beurling is in any threat of being challenged by us.

Offline Hooligan

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« Reply #117 on: December 19, 2000, 08:11:00 PM »
And I can't shoot like drex either  

Hooligan

Offline Torque

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« Reply #118 on: December 19, 2000, 08:15:00 PM »
me neither <sigh>

Nath-BDP

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Proof from HTC that Hispanos are accurate. plz dont ignore
« Reply #119 on: December 19, 2000, 09:02:00 PM »
Umm, dunno if this has occured to anyone else but... Buerling may have been bsing or maybe he couldn't judge range too well. Any pilot in WWII could have said 'I got kills at 800+ yards', theres no proof though.