A glimplse of the future for Europeans?

[lada]

Originally posted by soda72


Why would the *poor* roit in a *socialist* paradise?

Socialist paradise isnt France but Czech.

At least OECD consider czech to be and "socialist miracle"

How did you concluded, that France is soc. paradise ?

I agree that they are quite socialistic but i did never hear about french paradise.


Or is it just some hidden trolling from you, because you have nothing constructive to post about this even ?

[lada]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
I though socialism, diversity, and political correctness was supposed to fix all this?

hmmm you have quite interesting education in US.

[moot]

Don't you get it?  It was a zoo, no rules, no morality but the one each person held, and those each person expected others to hold.  No one did anything at a large scale because.... well I didn't know, and won't ever know for sure, and it not being done when it should've made me completely disinterested and unexpectant of politics for a long while.  
No one was going to do anything, because they get smacked individually.
There was no cash to pay teachers to do more than their jobs (teaching their respective discipline), none to watch racketeers etc during recess, no time to stay at home and guard your stuff.

I was tempted because my shoes had holes in em, because doing it would show some balls amidst the reigning fear and bleak prospects of life.  I held back because it was wrong, even when everyone was doing it, when it would've improved my situation, it was giving in to something wrong and losing my right to be righteous in defending against that wrong.
Everyone who gave in lost that self respect and respect of others, and set the precedent I renounced when I stayed put instead of joining in to the crimes small and large.

You couldn't brake the status quo without getting beat up, and I knew I wasn't going to stay forever in that place, so I stayed put and did nothing knowing one day I'd have the opportunity to oppose that sorta BS.
I'm gone from that place now, and I'm not returning.  People get what they deserve, and in my opinion, the people concerned by these riots have had it coming for a long time.

[moot]

And anyway, no offense to the French, but everytime I stay in the country, it seems to me there's no way (without being omniscient and omnipotent or nearly so) to please more than a large minority.
It's always like a henhouse, everyone disagrees and there's no real basic values to keep everything together during debates.
When there are debates instead of strikes etc.

[Krusher]

Originally posted by moot
We'd sit in class, and across the street there was an HLM with the lowest balconies reachable if you climbed a little.
Some friends were eyeing a pair of expensive Nike's left in sight.  There was some other stuff, but nothing you could swipe from below with so little foothold.
So they went and got it, and I agreed, it was so easy to take it, so valuable with no defense whatsoever.
But I thought, I do this, then what? The neighbourhood stank of ghetto and I couldn't stand to take part in it.
Almost everyone in the class felt the same, tempted but not willing to decide whether it was defendable.  Everyone (french, algerian, belgian, spanish, portuguese, you name it there was one in the class) was for himself and somehow, instead of agreeing the best thing was to mutualy consent to staying civil and out of each other's way, in a common sense free market type of environment, no one took responsibility, and just let things slide.  It paid more to do someone in than to work honestly for honest rewards.
The deliquants never asked twice.. no guilt when the offended is willing.

Later that year, that same "friend" picked the lock to the back of our house and stole all the compact hitech stuff in my room.
My dad got pissed, walked right to his house (keep in mind the kid's bigger brother has basically a whole high-rise to back him up) and talked to him and his parents.
The hypocrite came to me next day, praising how much balls my dad had, as tho we were friends again, newfound esteem.

That's all it'd take, guts and a sense of non-violent warfare anytime you were outnumbered.

Man Moot, it looks like you could have written this article. It is amazingly similar to your post.

link

I first saw l’insécurité for myself about eight months ago. It was just off the Boulevard Saint-Germain, in a neighborhood where a tolerably spacious apartment would cost $1 million. Three youths—Rumanians—were attempting quite openly to break into a parking meter with large screwdrivers to steal the coins. It was four o’clock in the afternoon; the sidewalks were crowded, and the nearby cafés were full. The youths behaved as if they were simply pursuing a normal and legitimate activity, with nothing to fear.

Eventually, two women in their sixties told them to stop. The youths, laughing until then, turned murderously angry, insulted the women, and brandished their screwdrivers. The women retreated, and the youths resumed their “work.”

A man of about 70 then told them to stop. They berated him still more threateningly, one of them holding a screwdriver as if to stab him in the stomach. I moved forward to help the man, but the youths, still shouting abuse and genuinely outraged at being interrupted in the pursuit of their livelihood, decided to run off. But it all could have ended very differently.

Several things struck me about the incident: the youths’ sense of invulnerability in broad daylight; the indifference to their behavior of large numbers of people who would never dream of behaving in the same way; that only the elderly tried to do anything about the situation, though physically least suited to do so. Could it be that only they had a view of right and wrong clear enough to wish to intervene? That everyone younger than they thought something like: “Refugees . . . hard life . . . very poor . . . too young to know right from wrong and anyway never taught . . . no choice for them . . . punishment cruel and useless”? The real criminals, indeed, were the drivers whose coins filled the parking meters: were they not polluting the world with their cars?

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by lada
hmmm you have quite interesting education in US.

so you are saying.......what exactly?

[moot]

Yeah Krusher, it hasn't changed..
I could've become like them, fortunately at the time I'd just come back from a few years in Toronto.
And even before that, I'd learned since kindergarten that the only foolproof plan was to always do my best.  No one can touch you if you're unreproachable.. I came out of kindergarten ahead of most kids (knew how to read and write, I knew how roots worked, only division I hadn't figured out completely).. so I came into first grade with my reputation preceding me and got some pretty stiff racism from at least one teacher... this kid once cut my palm open with scissors when I reached for the papers he'd been given to distribute to the class, and the teacher never paid attention till it bled on my paper.

The way out was up, and I just kept going up, skipped two years by the time I left for the US.  As crap as some of what I went thru was, one thing I always found more than rewarding enough was a good teacher appreciating my quality work.

My point is, those marginalized welfare bums/deliquants/whatever could have done it differently, all it takes is the right attitude.

[Yeager]

Why are so many people in France without jobs?  Makes the French version of socialism look a little "non competative".....

Still EADS gets hundreds and hundreds of millions of euros in guarateed subsidies to unfairly undercut Boeings commercial airplanes sales.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Your problem, Yeager, is that you confuse communism and socialism. A government can have socialist tendency and still make quite right wing decisions. Having social security and free healthcare do not mean everyone would be happy and even less so employed.

In fact, socialism guarantees a steady level of unemployment because it sets standards on work pricing. You can't get underpaid jobs - meaning that the people who work to the bone in US to survive are on dole here.

[bj229r]

When the government gives the impression that it can be more profitable for an individual NOT to work, things in said country not gonna improve much

[bj229r]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-1562226,00.html

The Sunday Times - Business

The Sunday Times    April 10, 2005

US threat over Airbus subsidies
Dominic Rushe, New York
UNITED STATES trade officials have threatened to resume their legal assault on Airbus subsidies if Europe grants any more aid to the aircraft maker.

The warning came late on Friday after talks on resolving the bitter trade dispute broke down ahead of tomorrow’s deadline for their resolution. America said that if European governments approved more launch aid, it would resume litigation at the World Trade Organisation — a clear warning over the €4 billion (£2.7 billion) in aid sought by Airbus to launch a mid-sized plane, the A350, which would compete with Boeing’s latest product, the 787.

The American ultimatum caps months of steadily worsening relations between the two trading blocs, with acrimonious exchanges between European trade commissioner Peter Mandelson and his opposite number Bob Zoellick.

Last month, both Mandelson and Zoellick claimed that the other slammed the phone down during a “heated” exchange and their personal relations are this weekend said to be severely strained.

Zoellick has accused Mandelson of “spin”, and the former Labour minister has claimed his American counterpart is an agent of Boeing.

The US is claiming that Airbus is unfairly supported by “launch aid” from European governments, which funds a large part of Airbus’s research- and-development costs. The Americans claim that Airbus has received $18 billion-plus (£9.5 billion) worth of aid. Airbus is 20% controlled by BAE Systems, with the rest owned by European Aeronautic Defence and Space. America is most concerned about launch aid for Airbus’s new super-jumbo aircraft, the A380.

The two sides had set a deadline for Monday to reach agreement on how to proceed with the dispute. Failing a resolution, America has said it will refer its complaints to the World Trade Organisation (WTO). The EU had agreed to end future loans but now wants them phased out. It also wants concessions from Boeing, Airbus’s main rival, which it claims is also unfairly propped up by tax breaks and government contracts.

In January the parties agreed to hold bilateral talks to resolve the dispute. The terms of the talks meant neither side could start legal action with the WTO and stopped European governments from providing further upfront funding for Airbus.

In February the EU proposed a phased approach to cutting subsidies and asked that the US also make concessions. Zoellick was said to be particularly incensed by Mandelson’s proposal that discussions should include subsidies for foreign suppliers, particularly aid from the Japanese government to its indigenous Boeing suppliers.

“They agreed to the framework and to end subsidies. There’s no way around that,” said a US official. “Maybe they have now realised their member states were not hip to that but that’s not our problem. If they don’t have the authority to end launch subsidies, just say so.”

The two sides have also fallen out over the timing of an end to aid, and which aircraft should be the last to receive it.

Sources close to Mandelson said he still hoped to reach a peaceful resolution. He said it was “not very logical” for either side to go to the WTO

[Yeager]

The types of subsidies Boeing gets from developing technology for military purposes and then transfering that knowledge to commercial use, AND the benifits of tax breaks provided as incentive to do business in any state or country, is equal for Boeing as it is for Airbus and are not negotiated or under contest in the WTO (as much as EADS wans it to be an issue, it isnt).  What Boeing is bringing to WTO and what we are talking about here is guaranteed secure loans from governments.  Boeing recieves ZERO guaranteed loans from any government.  Airbus is gaining unfair advantage from the governments of Spain, UK, Germany and France.  

Socialism and Communism are equal in this sense, they are competitors with capitalism.

The big problem with socialism in Europe is that the guaranteed right to welfare is very attractive to the poor people of asia, africa and the middle east and once these poor people get to places like France, UK and Germany, they are treated as an inferior race by the aboriginal europeans (maybe not so much in the UK).  Right now France is feeling the heat because the muslims there are angry at the 2nd class treatment the French are giving them.  Holding them down, treating them like dirt.  Soon the muslim brothers will bring their wrath to other european countries.

[grist]

Originally posted by Boroda
Well, I think his point is that US have to interfere again, and bomb France to "stone age" like they did to poor Serbs.

The main difference IMHO is that Serbs simply wanted to secure themselves from Moslim gangs a-la Chechnya, while in France rioters want to keep leeching more welfare from the local people.

Grun, do you still think that some Moslims should be "more equal"? I mean - do you still think that proud Chechen freedom-fighters need to be liberated from "evil barbarians who came from the East" (your real words BTW).

Ya, can Bill Clinton run again in 2008.  He did a great job with Serbia.

[Yeager]

The loans granted by the governments of spain, germany, france and the uk to EADS are guaranteed risk free loans.  This means that if airbus fails to make a profit they DO NOT HAVE TO PAY BACK THE LOANS.  there is no equivalent guarantee for Boeing.

[Torque]

"America has said it will refer its complaints to the World Trade Organisation"

so the wto has teeth now...charming