Author Topic: Oil companies have big quarter  (Read 1282 times)

Offline Nashwan

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Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2005, 09:55:13 AM »
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Oil makes alot of things. Including plastic as one of its main byproducts. Yet I do not see the price of plastic goods going through the roof.


Plastics have gone up in price by a large amount. Howevr, the price of plastic goods also includes manufacturing costs etc, which tend downwards over time. (and only 2 - 3% of oil goes into plastics production)

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And if crude oil was selling at such a high price, explain how the oil companies are showing "Record profits".


Because they produce oil.

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One would think these prices would be cutting into their bottom line just as gasoline prices cut into mine.


Why? Even if a company only sold oil by-products, they would pass the cost of raw materials on to the consumer. But the major oil companies are all producers as well.

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No, as far as gasoline is concerned they are pricegouging plain and simple.


Oil has gone up in price from about $25 a barrel a few years ago to around $60 a barrel now. What do you think that does to the cost of the main oil product, gasoline?

Offline Charon

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Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2005, 09:55:56 AM »
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How about this one.. who signs YOUR paycheck? Big Oil? Susidiary?


Nope. I write for "small oil." And small oil is no real friend of big oil, and hasn't been for a while. I have always been fair when covering big oil, and as much as I as a consumer or small oil as an industry segment would like to bash big oil, the arguments just don’t add up.

In fact, big oil recently tried to deflect the heat it is facing down on small oil with the whole "price gouging at the pump" inference they put out in Sept., that included ads in the beltway press and national media. With friends like that… Unnecessary, (hello… Katrina/Rita) but when you hear windfall profits tax bandied about in Washington people panic. Of course, all small oil had to do was open the books and show congress the wholesale price of gasoline, cost of doing business, retail price, gross and net margins. Simple story, especially when you look at all those price signs you see driving down the road that make gasoline the most transparently priced product consumers buy and the most directly competitive. When Visa or MasterCard earn as much on a gallon of gas as the retailer it’s hard to be the villain. Hard to gouge, when the station across the street decides to grab your customers by posting a realistic price. And yet, because retailers are the messenger they get blamed by consumers and used as a launch pad for the Governor's run by state AGs. We’re just happy that Congress paid attention for a change, and that the leading consumer advocates understand our part of the story..

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Nothin personal.. enjoy your posts and your sharp incisive approach to topics. But arguing with you about Big Oil policy is like arguing with my wife the Insurance Company Executive about insurance company policy.


I find it's like arguing with a Sarah Brady supporter about gun control (not just you, of course), and it brings out the same aggravations. Gun control is an emotional issue but a huge portion of the population knows the "facts" behind why it is a good, sensible thing. Actually, they seem to have more "facts," as flawed as they tend to be, to back up their positions than people have on gas prices. The aggravation is in getting people to move past emotion and debate the issue based on real, solid, credible facts. Most won't go through the trouble because they just don't like guns and nobody should have them or want free gas, and short of that gas at a cost that doesn't reflect fundamental realities.

You can't have this argument without knowing the issues in detail. Hours and hours of detail. It's taken me 7 years and probably 200 articles to reach a point where I can feel comfortable "knowing enough to be dangerous" on these issues. If you can't answer those 10 questions I posted earlier in detail, there really is no basis to start an argument on the issue.

Take insurance. It's an emotional issue and one where I have some strong opinions. But I know for a fact that it is a complicated industry, and since I haven't researched the industry in detail at this point they would be at best uninformed opinions.

Charon
« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 10:02:08 AM by Charon »

Offline Hangtime

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Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2005, 10:10:38 AM »
Understood...

up to the part that keeps garabbing me..

Big oil has landed massive profits, incredible profits, profits that outstrip the gross national product of some 1st world nations. Profits beyond the scale of reason.

And, Big oil gets billions in tax relief.

Ergo, big oil is raping the public. And the public is subsidising their own screwing via tax relief.. to protect big oils insane profits.

Sorry.. the wall of text explanations for how this happens hasn't in the least mitigated the one salient point..

we're being raped.

'This is gonna hurt me more than it's gonna hurt you' didn't convince me I needed a beating 40 years ago... ain't gonna help now, either. ;)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline lazs2

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Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2005, 10:19:04 AM »
what part about refineries not producing and therefore demand (and price) going up is so hard to understand?   If no new refineries are being built then every excuse that includes the shutdown of overworked refineries will be valid.

lazs

Offline Charon

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Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2005, 10:50:11 AM »
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And, Big oil gets billions in tax relief.


See, now that's a topic for discussion :) You can add Big Drug, Insurance and Agribusiness to the list while we're at it.

Charon

Offline DoctorYO

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Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2005, 11:00:59 AM »
While some of you are patting eachother on the back for your oil dividends what many of you fail to realise is that while you may be getting more money in you pocket, that is offset by inflation..

peg your profits to the inflation index..

a index that will get worse..  why?  energy costs..   66 billion trade deficit... 2 theatre war and finally disproportional tax cuts..

when i see the euro and other currencies kicking our arse; as a foreign investor how much longer are you going to forgo those high proforming non US markets.

your not...

and once that happens in mass then we got big trouble in little china.. due to our loan dependence..

Now while I find Charons arguments very accurate in a true free market, we are not in a true free market when it comes to petrol...

First lets talk about our artificial refinery shortage..  back in the day there were plenty of refineries out there..  Mom and Pop operations were common and the majors were there in force also..   As a result of this free market supply would meet the demand rather well keeping fuel prices stable .(low)  while that stability is great for the consumer it keeps the markets down for the producers due to the competition from the various other competitors..

Then the majors got a bright idea, "hey if we jump on the enviro bandwagon that was going on in the 90's we can lobby for tougher standards for the refiners to make gasoline heating oil etc..."

the plan is rather ingenious, by using lobby and campaign contributions they got their laws...  and while the majors had the stock backing of their shareholders for the purchasing power to meet the new regulations the mom and pop operations were left in the wind..  unable to upgrade they were gobbled up by the majors but instead of keeping those operations running they then closed them limiting capacity to refine..  now this didn't happen over night so to the consumer little or no change was to be noticed.. that is until any disruptions to the new weakened refinery capability was to be experienced..

So thats why when you breath the wrong way at our refinery infustructre there is a major crisis in the laws of supply and demand doing exactly what charon has described (very good points on many of your posts.)

Now im all for free market when everybody plays by the rules of supply and demand..  but when you decrease supply capacity to increase demand imo thats a trade violation in regards to a commodity that is a part of our lives in so many ways... in effect holding the consumer / nation hostage..

IMO the whole industry needs a overhall  ....  were talking energy insecurity in the near future without it..  We already felt the tip of the iceberg with katrina and wilma..

IMO with a commodity so precious to our western way of life, goverment should take over the responsibilty in the entire US energy industry..  Works for power companys..  (use FPL for a example) they are on the ball and held accountable by the florida govt..the state just approved a increase they requested and by peer review they needed it due to rising energy costs..  very few shenanagins from them..

The other alternative is greed based capitalism and shareholder demand and expectation..aka the current system  and if your a californian you know that all too well with Enron and their price fixing / artificial shortage blueprint. Now the petroleum industy is employing  that same blueprint on the consumer; when you go to the pump you are not only paying for your gas but also the inflation thats also going to be comming your way do to our economy dependence on truckers to supply goods / services to your home..

Quite honestly I dont trust the energy security of the USA to a free market..  its just too valuable in our daily lives to leave open to the vulnrability of market manipulation, either domestic or foreign with the huge economic penalties that come with such tampering..



DoctorYo

Offline lada

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Re: Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2005, 11:19:49 AM »
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Wow, taking advantage of a hurricane to pork the people, even the republicans are pissed. When asked by a republican if they would give 10% of those record profits to poor Americans to heat their homes this winter? "We shouldn't fund government programs"

Well Golly-geen, if you didn't rape the American public after the hurricanes, maybe there wouldn't be a need fund a program to heat homes of poor Americans.

Refineries? Why would they want refineries? They are getting filthy rich without them


hehe this little whine remind me  this one.

Do you know whats true diference between Capitalism and Comunism ?
In comunism,  people are exploited by people, while in capitalism its vise versa.

:D

Offline Ripsnort

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Re: Re: Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2005, 11:22:46 AM »
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Originally posted by lada
Do you know whats true diference between Capitalism and Comunism ?
In comunism,  people are exploited by people, while in capitalism its vise versa.

:D


Obviously the education system.:eek: :rofl

Offline Charon

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Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2005, 01:08:11 PM »
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First lets talk about our artificial refinery shortage.. back in the day there were plenty of refineries out there.. Mom and Pop operations were common and the majors were there in force also.. As a result of this free market supply would meet the demand rather well keeping fuel prices stable .(low) while that stability is great for the consumer it keeps the markets down for the producers due to the competition from the various other competitors..


The refinery reduction occurred after deregulation. Before that prices to the consumer were higher (in that period’s dollars) than they are today. Prices were stable (but high) because they were fixed by the government. Supply was immune to casual disruption and volitility (outside of OPEC issues) because there was serious overcapacity.

Also, most of those record profits that have sparked this discussion (and even the non record profits of years past) come from exploration and production (moving crude) and not refining:

Still, record crude oil prices -- which touched $70 a barrel in the quarter -- pushed earnings at its exploration and production unit to $5.73 billion, up $1.8 billion from a year earlier.

At its refining and marketing operations, profit rose to $2.13 billion, up $727 million from a year earlier. Stronger refining margins outweighed weak marketing margins and lower petroleum product sales.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/27/news/fortune500/exxon.reut/

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Then the majors got a bright idea, "hey if we jump on the enviro bandwagon that was going on in the 90's we can lobby for tougher standards for the refiners to make gasoline heating oil etc..."


I would like to see the hard data that supports the industry pushing this as a master plan. It’s a nice theory, but IMO it gives the industry too much credit for evil brilliance. As a plan, it really failed to pay off for about 20 years. I can't imagine any industry having that long term an outlook on profits. And as noted, refning may not be the "tail of the dog" but it's certainly in the bellybutton end where profits and risk are concerned.

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the plan is rather ingenious, by using lobby and campaign contributions they got their laws... and while the majors had the stock backing of their shareholders for the purchasing power to meet the new regulations the mom and pop operations were left in the wind.. unable to upgrade they were gobbled up by the majors but instead of keeping those operations running they then closed them limiting capacity to refine.. now this didn't happen over night so to the consumer little or no change was to be noticed.. that is until any disruptions to the new weakened refinery capability was to be experienced..

So thats why when you breath the wrong way at our refinery infustructre there is a major crisis in the laws of supply and demand doing exactly what charon has described (very good points on many of your posts.)


The industry found itself, as it left regulation, with significant over capacity in refining, and with a lot of mom and pops that couldn’t survive anymore (after 1973) in a non regulated market from both an efficiency and environmental upgrade standpoint. The same thing happened to many retail and marketer operations that had enjoyed artificially "set" high retail margins and suddenly found those artificial supports removed.

U.S. refining capacity, as measured by daily processing capacity of crude oil distillation units alone, has appeared relatively stable in recent years, at about 16 million barrels per day of operable capacity (graph).  While the level is a reduction from the capacity of twenty years ago, the first refineries that were shut down as demand fell in the early 1980's were those that had little downstream processing capability.  Limited to simple distillation, these small facilities were only economically viable while receiving subsidies under the Federal price control system that ended in 1981.  Some additional refineries were shut down in the late 1980's and during the 1990's, always, of course, those at the least profitable end of a company's asset portfolio.  At the same time, refiners improved the efficiency of the crude oil distillation units that remained in service by "debottlenecking" to improve the flow and to match capacity among different units and by turning more and more to computer control of the processing. http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/Refining_text.htm

The decision, for a long time, has been to have fewer refineries but more capacity at those refineries. We currently do not have under capacity, we just don’t have over capacity (a goal with any business or industry). It becomes an issue during peak periods when you have a refinery fire or a pipeline shut down (or in this case a natural disaster at the worst place and the worst time). It is not an issue otherwise. Refineries have made more money in the past few years, but there is no consensus that the “good times” are here to stay. Average returns have been in the 5 percent range, which is poor compared to industry in general. Low enough to discourage investment throughout the 1990s and at the same time encourage all of those integrated major oil companies to pass off many of those refineries they “gobbled up” to independent refiners and refiner marketers like Valero. Refining just didn’t (and doesn’t) bring in the money compared to exploration and production -- too much trouble for the returns because of all of those environmental regulations they “fought” for :)

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Now im all for free market when everybody plays by the rules of supply and demand.. but when you decrease supply capacity to increase demand imo thats a trade violation in regards to a commodity that is a part of our lives in so many ways... in effect holding the consumer / nation hostage..


The FTC has consistently disagreed.

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IMO with a commodity so precious to our western way of life, goverment should take over the responsibilty in the entire US energy industry.. Works for power companys.. (use FPL for a example) they are on the ball and held accountable by the florida govt..the state just approved a increase they requested and by peer review they needed it due to rising energy costs.. very few shenanagins from them..

Quite honestly I dont trust the energy security of the USA to a free market.. its just too valuable in our daily lives to leave open to the vulnrability of market manipulation, either domestic or foreign with the huge economic penalties that come with such tampering..


The difference between the oil industry and the electric industry is that one is regional in scope and self contained, while the other is global in nature (infrastructure, ownership, competition, demand for raw materials and finished products, import and export dynamics) and where the US is hard pressed to even be considered a marginal produce of the raw product that grossly influences the price of gasoline. It’s hard to imagine a functional solution within these realities that would work as well as the current one does, even with the problems inherent in the system.

Btw, even recently, with the exception of a few years (and this is one) oil industry profits tend to lag the average for industry. As long as crude stays above $40 bbl that will not be the case.

Charon
« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 01:21:28 PM by Charon »

Offline ygsmilo

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Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2005, 01:37:58 PM »
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Originally posted by DoctorYO

when i see the euro and other currencies kicking our arse; as a foreign investor how much longer are you going to forgo those high proforming non US markets.

your not...


DoctorYo


The euro has been in a freefall since last December as have the other currencies vrs the dollar.

Offline Nilsen

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Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2005, 01:38:36 PM »
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Originally posted by ygsmilo
The euro has been in a freefall since last December as have the other currencies vrs the dollar.


really?

Offline ygsmilo

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Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2005, 04:15:12 PM »
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Originally posted by Nilsen
really?


EURO close on 11/1/2004 - 1.3298
EURO close on 11/1/2005 - 1.1711

(these are futures quotes)

As a side note the EURO has been under pressure due to the riots on France, once that situation gets lined out is should recover some but he long term bond yield curve is still negative as it is in the US Treasury bonds.

Offline Nilsen

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Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #57 on: November 10, 2005, 04:31:30 PM »
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Originally posted by ygsmilo
EURO close on 11/1/2004 - 1.3298
EURO close on 11/1/2005 - 1.1711

(these are futures quotes)

As a side note the EURO has been under pressure due to the riots on France, once that situation gets lined out is should recover some but he long term bond yield curve is still negative as it is in the US Treasury bonds.


Yes, thats fine.. but you said "as have the other currencies vrs the dollar"

Offline ygsmilo

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Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #58 on: November 10, 2005, 09:17:59 PM »
Its pretty much an inverse relationship,,, when the USD moves up other currencies move lower and vice visa.  Unless there is a underlying fundamental driving the currency, like when the ruble took an auger ( hides waiting for Borada to show up lambasting me for my russiaphopeia )

Offline Sixpence

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Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2005, 12:29:59 AM »
"My oil stocks are doing great" It's funny, the one's who say that American values are being eroded are the first ones to sell out their fellow Americans for a buck
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)