Author Topic: Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem  (Read 2517 times)

Offline straffo

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2005, 11:45:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bozon
some planes have cannons and some planes only mg.  


Ask for the  the CM (cannon multiplier) ,any caliber >= 20mm willl make half the damage it used to do.

Offline gatt

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2005, 02:07:59 AM »
You know, there is no limit to wrong and unhistorical things that make the MA so gameish. Fuel gaming is one of them.

The majority of players seem unable to plan their fuel load in advance. HTC knows and allows it. So be it.

But dont tell me it is right. It is simply a gameish features too difficult or too dangerous (from a commercial POV) to fix.

Well, at least we can keep asking for the 20mm gun pods for the K-4 and F-4 or for the big drop tank for the Spit IX, even to allow level bombers to dive like Stukas :huh
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Kweassa

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2005, 02:23:12 AM »
Quote
As I said before, restore the original 1.5 fuel burn and you will see less use of drop tanks.


 And the differences in plane ranges that was apparent disappears in turn.
 
 Quite a simple thing really - leave the fuel multiplier as it is, and get rid of the ability to use unlikely settings. In regards to adjusting plane behavior and fuel selection tendencies to more likely levels, it's a solution that makes much more sense than the foul instinct to somehow defend every bit of advantage a plane may hold be it "gamey" or not.

Quote
And please, show me one airplane that carried 50% of its weight in external fuel. Even the ultra-long range P-47N would require 7,000 pounds of external fuel to meet your figure. However, the most it can carry externally is 2,250 pounds. Seriously, get a grip on reality. A P-47N pilot might take 50% and 75 gallons external, or 450 pounds. If he dropped the tank on takeoff while almost full, total reduction is 3% (based upon 15,000 lb takeoff weight with fuel, ammo and ordnance). So, where does your 50% fantasy come from?


 It's interesting that among all planes you must go choose a plane which holds the largest amount of internal fuel in the game - but fair enough. Since you insist, I'll admit the "50%" was a gross figurative exaggeration.

 However, the point which you are deliberately ignoring to address, is by using an unlikely configuration of 50%+DT, a plane which already holds a distinct advantage of long range, also holds the ability to reduce the fuel amount to combat levels he sees fit. No matter what kind of oddball incident you dig up, the point stands that DTs aren't anything like that.

 They are devices used to increase flight range when internal fuel load isn't sufficient - not a combat crutch which you can attach/detach at whim, despite your plane has the ability to cover the distance suited for your flight purpose. People who are flying at 50%+DT or 75%+DT currently, as a matter of fact, should be flying at 75% or 100% internal. Only when they want to fly something like a really long mission deep into enemy territory, fly escort for hour or more, should they use DTs, because, that's what DTs are supposed to be.

 Some planes have DTs, others don't, and nobody is arguing about that fact. What we are arguing about, however, is to limit the manner of DT usage to something that reflects reality at least remotely. Increased range must come with a penalty, and that penalty should not be avoided by a game exploit. Because, the other fighters with decreased range already comes with a penalty which they have no way of cleverly avoiding by exploiting the freedoms of the game.

 I mean, what does this 'penalize' for anybody? Nobody said you'd always have to fly at 100%. If you want a lighter plane, then choose a lighter load like everyone else. Or, if you want something like a 50%+ DT configuration, you can always choose 75% and burn off the 25% before engaging. If some other plane engages you before you burn the desired amount - well then tough, it's no DIFFERENT FROM WHAT THE REST OF THE PEOPLE USING OTHER PLANES ARE ALREADY DOING. Being able to use a longer range is a gift by itself. The second gift, of using the DTs to make the planes fly long distances and still be able to revert to a combat advantageous weight, is something which should never have been given in the first place.


 It's a classic case of techincal feasibility vs. reality. The 109K-4 had the ability to use gondolas, but that option was removed since it was not represantative of real life. In that case, why should it be any different with ordnances for other planes, including DTs?

 HTC might not have a double standard on this issue, but the players sure do.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 02:33:44 AM by Kweassa »

Offline bj229r

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2005, 05:56:25 AM »
The only reason the burn rate was put to where it is was to do SOMETHING to knock down planes like the La7 a bit. --the 19 minutes at full throttle is argueably the only weakness it has under 10k.  AH can't simulate spending 1-2 hours flying to target, else they would have no subscribers.

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Offline Rotax447

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2005, 09:47:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bozon
some planes have cannons and some planes only mg. Some planes have DT and some only internal tanks. Yes, DT option IS an advantage, but who said all planes are born equal? If the 205/La7 did not have a DT option, take it up with Macci/Lavochkin, what do you want from HTC?

This is more realistic? Find a pilot's book that say that the plane cannot be fitted with DT when the tanks are not full and I'm sure HT will fix that in the next patch.

I find the realism argument in this context extremely ridiculous. In a game where flaps auto-retract, shooting a friendly plane will knock your own bellybutton off, water injection "recharges", pilots swivel their head an owl's 180 degree, buildings get blown up by mg, 3 chess piece countries fight on a map that looks like a pizza with the Mercedes-Benz logo imbedded in it, and spit1 can fight a P47N you find loading 75%+DT, which was historically possible, unrealistic?!!! :D :D
:rolleyes:

You can argue on. This debate has already strated and ended in AHII beta and HT's decision is clear.

Bozon



Count on a physicist to bring us back to reality ... well said bro :aok

Rotax447

Offline gatt

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2005, 05:50:09 PM »
Eheh, take a look at how many scared and angry Jug-Pony drivers we have. Dont worry guys HTC cant renounce to such a big number of customers :)
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Kweassa

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2005, 10:55:39 PM »
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You can argue on. This debate has already strated and ended in AHII beta and HT's decision is clear.


 The years have shown his decisions change with them.

 We'll just see what happens, maybe for as long as five years.

Offline Gianlupo

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2005, 03:45:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bozon

If the 205/La7 did not have a DT option, take it up with Macci/Lavochkin, what do you want from HTC?


Macchi fighters did have the options of drop tanks. The 202 from the XI batch of production, the 205 since its beginning, had the option to carry under wings 2 drop tank of 100 or 150 liters of capacity. It would be nice if HTC model this option. (they could even load bombs, but maybe too small for the game: 2 50/100/160 Kg, up to 320 Kg)
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Offline Krusty

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2005, 11:22:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gianlupo
Macchi fighters did have the options of drop tanks. The 202 from the XI batch of production, the 205 since its beginning, had the option to carry under wings 2 drop tank of 100 or 150 liters of capacity. It would be nice if HTC model this option. (they could even load bombs, but maybe too small for the game: 2 50/100/160 Kg, up to 320 Kg)


I swear that WAAAAY back like maybe a year or two after AH1 came out I saw 202s in AH flying SEA practice runs for Afrika Corp, or some such scenario, and they were escorting Ju88s with 2 white/silver DTs (1 under each wing). I was gunning a Ju88 so I had plenty of time to watch.

My memory swears there *were* DTs in AH once for these planes. Don't know why they were removed.

Offline gatt

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2005, 02:09:26 AM »
AFAIK, AH's Macchi's never had drop tanks (btw Gianlupo, I got your mail, I'll let you know something soon ;)).

Anyway, if we accept game-ish features like the fuel gaming then any quakers will begin to ask for 4x20mm C.202 and DB603 engined C.205s.

Lets see what HTC will do.

P.S.: give the gunpods to the K-4!  :mad:
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Gianlupo

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2005, 02:45:20 AM »
Thanks, Gatt! :)

I don't know if this feature is really gamish, but it's seems it's creating some issue among players. This issue could be partly removed with a better research on planes' loadouts.

Krusty, I never saw DT for Macchi, too, but I'm playing since 2003, so you're prolly right... but, then, I wonder why they removed...
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Offline eilif

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2005, 03:42:21 AM »
posted by bozan

Quote
I find the realism argument in this context extremely ridiculous. In a game where flaps auto-retract, shooting a friendly plane will knock your own bellybutton off, water injection "recharges", pilots swivel their head an owl's 180 degree, buildings get blown up by mg, 3 chess piece countries fight on a map that looks like a pizza with the Mercedes-Benz logo imbedded in it, and spit1 can fight a P47N you find loading 75%+DT, which was historically possible, unrealistic?!!!  



well put !

Offline gatt

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2005, 04:25:21 AM »
Eilif and Bozon,

if you ppl are happy with gameish features you are obviously entitled to it. However, the present gameish features dont justify more similar features or the "non removal" of them. The effort of the community should be directed towards removing 180° degrees head movements, diving level bombers, kamikazes, absurd CV ack-ack and so on.

Thats what a mature community should do, to make AH more interesting, accurate and enjoiable.
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline bozon

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2005, 06:18:52 AM »
With all the saints speaking in my head it's hard to think clearly. Please explain again how a technical detail like using a drop tank when internal tanks are not full, which worked on the real planes, is gamey.

lets break it up so we'll see what are we arguing about:
1. Was it possible in the real planes to load 50%+DT?
2. Is there a reliable historical source that states that this was never-ever done or should not be done? If so, please elaborate why.
4. In case the answer to 1 is YES - Isn't disallowing the technical posibility of taking DT when tanks are not full just as gamey?

Bozon
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Offline straffo

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2005, 06:32:22 AM »
1 yes it's possible as far as I know nothing prevent such loadout.

2 cost and availlability.

A DT is IRL not free like in AH plus it add drag I know for sure that the german DT had were to be salvaged by dedicaced team and even have a marking saying :
it's not a bomb if you find it send it back to the nearest LW base
(or something like that)


3 where is point 3 ?
we are missing point 3  Mayday Mayday ! ;)

4 as gamey as the fuel multiplier.