Author Topic: What happened to LW?  (Read 23159 times)

Offline justin_g

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #435 on: December 09, 2005, 10:47:53 PM »
Lukas: I can't get out this dive! I'm screwed!
Obi Wan Kommander: Use the flosse, Lukas!

Offline Kurfürst

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #436 on: December 10, 2005, 03:43:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
The late 109's could dive very very fast, and they were relatively quick in gaining the speed. They would AFAIK need to be trimmed out of the dive.
Rall has mentioned that the P47 was the first he met that could not be left behind.


The trick was a bit different, but I presume many aircraft used similiar ways before diving.

The 109 manual notes that the pilot shouldn't trim the plane into dive, ie. leave it on the normal cruise setting, and keep the stick pushed forwards slightly instead to compensate for the nose-up tendency.

When he wants to come out, if he simply releases the stick and it went back to neutral by the airflow, the nose-up trim pulled the plane up by itself, plus he could help it out with the elevator, and/or use more trim if thins go scary.

Trimming out from a dive heavily using the Flosse has it's dangers, since it's the whole horizontal stabiliser that moves, being a much bigger area is far more effective than ordinary trim tabs on control surfaces - for this reason it's wasnt a particularly bad feature that since it was hand operated (it was electric on the FW190 iirc), the forces prevented you from suddenly ripping your own tail off. ;)

Another good feature of it that under compressibility it can be an effective way controlling the planeess, under conditions where the elevator is useless (normal trim tabs only set the elevator, so are useless in this case just as well).
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
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Offline Kurfürst

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #437 on: December 10, 2005, 03:46:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by justin_g
Lukas: I can't get out this dive! I'm screwed!
Obi Wan Kommander: Use the flosse, Lukas!


:rofl

I don't know if you are aware of, but the guy who did 906 kph/.805Mach in dive in acontrolled test was named Lukas Schmidt, Messerschmitt's test pilot...
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline Angus

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #438 on: December 10, 2005, 09:43:58 AM »
T.E.Jonsson dived a Hurricane to some insane speed, - full power from 30K.
He got locked up badly, the aircraft sustaining some damage, but he pulled out,- with the stick.
The aircraft was damaged, - it acquired a dihedral of 4 degs and the wing coating got "waves" on it.
Hawkers experts later came to have a look. This was in 1940.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Apar

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #439 on: December 10, 2005, 06:40:57 PM »
The 109 performance HAS changed. Whether it is the FM or not, I don't care, it has changed. I flew the g10 almost exclusively for almost 3 years. I've gone through all the changes from AH1 to AH2. But this is getting silly.

The K4 is way more unstable then the G10. Roll rate feels slower then before too. I won't even start about the view through half a meter thick bars........ :O

The G2 snap rolls on most tight turns when at 75%+ fuel (g2 was already for a long time unstable at 75+ fuel in AH).

I'm not an FM specialist but the stability of the 109's can't be right. People that have fought me in 109's the last years know that i'm not a n00b in these planes. I cannot believe that these planes were THAT unstable in real life.

I hope the FM's will be fixed, I feel reluctant to fly LW in ToD.

Offline Bruno

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #440 on: December 10, 2005, 06:57:59 PM »
Quote
The K4 is way more unstable then the G10.


I agree 100% there. I have flown the K-4 some this week. I have 3 deaths (only deaths while in a K-4) as a result of auguring while fighting low otd. It seems like there's certain times the Kurfürst will just lose all control input and flop. Speeds and AoA have varied in the 3 deaths I have.

The G-14 feels just as 'unstable'. I haven't flown the others. Besides its performance the G-14 in AH is one of the worst representations of a 109 in any game I have flown. Maybe they were in a rush to release the new version. It looks like they have gone to this 'all the lw can do is fly straight' model that was apart of WBs for the longest time.


Other then my whine above about 'stability' I don't see any major differences.

Wotan

Offline 1K3

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #441 on: December 11, 2005, 02:08:15 AM »
g14 feels a bit heavy to me but it's suppose to be the hot rod pf 109s!:p

Offline gatt

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #442 on: December 11, 2005, 03:43:06 AM »
Bruno and Apar,

it would be interesting to have someone testing the old G-10 and the new K-4 as far as stability, roll rate, turn performance, etc.etc. .... are concerned. When I used the G-10 without the pods it was with the engine mounted 20mm and not the 30mm (anyway, i dont remember if it was available and I dont know whats the difference in term of weight, if any). However, the tactic was pretty different: more speed, deflection shooting, firing even from 400-500yds. A different world.

I really hope the FM hasnt got worst. Togheter with the pig G-14 i't would be too much, really.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2005, 03:48:54 AM by gatt »
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

storch

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #443 on: December 11, 2005, 06:45:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gatt
Bruno and Apar,

it would be interesting to have someone testing the old G-10 and the new K-4 as far as stability, roll rate, turn performance, etc.etc. .... are concerned. When I used the G-10 without the pods it was with the engine mounted 20mm and not the 30mm (anyway, i dont remember if it was available and I dont know whats the difference in term of weight, if any). However, the tactic was pretty different: more speed, deflection shooting, firing even from 400-500yds. A different world.

I really hope the FM hasnt got worst. Togheter with the pig G-14 i't would be too much, really.
not to worry gents. St. Grits of Blue Velvet Safetyness has already done so he has proclaimed in his infinite wisdom that we are full of conspiracy theories and he is making reservations at a recovery center for all us luftwhiners.

Offline wrag

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #444 on: December 11, 2005, 07:47:57 AM »
Perhaps it's just the new cockpit?

But to me the new 109s' just FEEL different.  The k4 and the g14.  GIVE ME BACK MY G10!!!!!!!!

This from someone that flew the g10 almost exclusively to other planes.

P.S. IMHO if ALL the k4 came from the factory with gonds then gonds should be made available in the hanger options.  Even if they were removed by groundcrews later.   NOW you want to beat a k4 HO him.

P.P.S.S. IMHO if there was over 5000 variants of f4s built with gonds then the gonds should be made available in the hanger options.

AND I don't think I'll be particapating in the TOD arena/arenas when IMHO the axis planes are porked so badly.
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline MANDO

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #445 on: December 11, 2005, 08:15:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Apar
The 109 performance HAS changed.  


Hey Apar. My AH is still 2.05 patch 3, if you need any test of the G10, tell me.

Offline Grits

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #446 on: December 11, 2005, 11:21:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
not to worry gents. St. Grits of Blue Velvet Safetyness has already done so he has proclaimed in his infinite wisdom that we are full of conspiracy theories and he is making reservations at a recovery center for all us luftwhiners.


Why bring my squad into this? If you notice, I dissagree with several of my squaddies in the BK's who think FM's have been changed. Your latent-homosexual fixation on the BK's is not healthy Storch, you should take up gardening or something.

Quote
Originally posted by MANDO
Hey Apar. My AH is still 2.05 patch 3, if you need any test of the G10, tell me.


Storch is correct, I have tested the 109's in five (six if you cound the beta) different versions of AH2. I tested OTD speed, acceleration, and roll in versions 1.997, 2.0, 2.02, 2.03, 2.04 and the current one. I tested the E-4 and F-4 and tested the old G-10 to the new K-4 in all the versions I listed above. Just for good measure, I also tested the 190A-5, the F4U-1D, the Tiffie, the Ki-84 and the P-51D. I found nothing different in any version of AH2 in any plane in any way I could think to test them.

Let me say this clearly once more. I am NOT saying the 109's and 190's are correct, there is no way they were this poor in comparison to their allied counterparts. What I AM saying is nothing I can find through testing has changed in any patch of AH2 and nothing but repeatable tests showing some kind of difference will change my mind.

Offline 1K3

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #447 on: December 11, 2005, 02:10:19 PM »
Quote

P.P.S.S. IMHO if there was over 5000 variants of f4s built with gonds then the gonds should be made available in the hanger options.


only 0.1 percent of 109F4s had gondolas and mostly used as a testbed for the new 109Gs

Offline Glasses

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #448 on: December 11, 2005, 02:11:23 PM »
So it has been consistant.



















Consistantly wrong that is. :D

Offline DoKGonZo

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #449 on: December 11, 2005, 03:37:48 PM »
Some of the recent comments do bring up an interesting point.

There's two kinds of "wrong" which I think are being discussed. One is pure performance numbers - acceleration and sustained turn probably being the most "off".

The other is the more subjective stuff like the way the 109 and 190 flop around at low speeds. The 190 *should* behave badly if you yank the stick like it was a Spit. But if you're smooth on the controls it should be docile. The 109 just doesn't feel like the tight, darty little plane it was. It "feels" heavy.

The raw numbers are easier to fix and isolate. The more subjective stuff, and the onset of spin and control loss at low speeds, not so much. But given where most AH fights end up, its pretty important to get this stuff closer to right.