Author Topic: What happened to LW?  (Read 23192 times)

Offline Krusty

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #390 on: December 06, 2005, 01:25:36 AM »
Well I just gt 7 kills in 2 consecutive sorties ni ta152s... I don't think they need combat flaps but will make things interesting!

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #391 on: December 06, 2005, 03:40:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

According to the VVS testing of turning rates, at max cruising speeds, it took an La7 12 complete turns to outturn an FW-190A5.

Crumpp


Hi Crumpp

Do you have a source for this? I would like to aquire such data....

When you say max cruise speeds.........what do you mean?
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Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #392 on: December 06, 2005, 06:32:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 1K3
109 will get COMBAT FLAPS???

:aok

(plays tune "Ride of the Valkerie")

and what about the 190s? :p


?
I think you'll find they are being set to deploy at the correct speed, would hardly call it combat flaps.
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Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #393 on: December 06, 2005, 06:45:50 AM »
Well Kev considering the 109 gives added lift when they can be deployed as it is, they will most likely give added lift/turn when they are fixed aswell.

Then people can call it combat flaps or whatever they want. Just having them fixed to the correct speeds would be nice.

However, looking at the chart posted recently they should be able to deply 10 degree's already at 490mph. Don't think that will happen.
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #394 on: December 06, 2005, 07:06:17 AM »
Quote
I think you'll find they are being set to deploy at the correct speed, would hardly call it combat flaps.


Funny the USAAF thought they were and labeled them as such during their testing of the Focke Wulf.

Quote
When you say max cruise speeds.........what do you mean?


Max cruise for the FW-190 is 1.20ata @ 2300U/min.  

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #395 on: December 06, 2005, 07:28:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Funny the USAAF thought they were and labeled them as such during their testing of the Focke Wulf.

 Crumpp


Guy was talking about 109's not 190's.

Original post - "109 will get combat flaps"


Interesting aside - Guess it's lucky that for the time to required to wind the flaps down (for manual deployment planes), you are still able to change the throttle, unlike real life.
Applies to all aircraft with manually deployed flaps, not just LW, not being biased here.

Edit -
Thinking about it - This may be the main reason you don't seem to see any or very few combat reports of 109's using 'combat flaps'. It's more expediant to have throttle control than have to wind down (x) degrees of flaps whether your the chaser or chased.

Wilbus - That chart TAS or IAS?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 07:59:01 AM by Kev367th »
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Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #396 on: December 06, 2005, 08:20:37 AM »
Crumpp. The talk was about the 109, not the 190.

Question thoug. What max speed could the first notch of flaps be deployed at in the 190?

Not sure if the chart is in TAS or IAS.
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Offline Charge

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« Reply #397 on: December 06, 2005, 08:33:11 AM »
"Thinking about it - This may be the main reason you don't seem to see any or very few combat reports of 109's using 'combat flaps'. It's more expediant to have throttle control than have to wind down (x) degrees of flaps whether your the chaser or chased."

OR, IRL they did not really need them to be competitive with their contemporary rivals...

;)

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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #398 on: December 06, 2005, 08:38:36 AM »
Quote
Not sure if the chart is in TAS or IAS.


Usually it is IAS when it goes to the pilot although that strikes me a somewhat fast in this case.


Either way the 109 has a comfortable lead on flap deployment speeds.

Quote
What max speed could the first notch of flaps be deployed at in the 190?


The Flugzeug-handbuch instructs the pilot to raise the take off flaps and trim for level flight at 500Kph IAS.  I would set that as the top speed of the take off position for a game.    

AFAIK there is no set top speed however and the take off flaps should be deployable throughout the FW-190's normal speed envelope.

10-13 degrees is just not a whole lot of flap.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #399 on: December 06, 2005, 09:05:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
FW-190's did fly against La's and Yaks.  They were competative.  So much in fact that the VVS operated a squadron of captured Dora's.
"In the east, the Russian advance towards Berlin reaped war booty aplenty. This included between 6 to 10 Focke-Wulf Fw190D-9’s captured intact by the 2 Guards IAP of 322 IAD at a Focke-Wulf facility near Marienburg, East Prussia. Fresh from the production line it appears that at first they were not flown but were, for propaganda purposes, painted with red stars by the Air Force of the Baltic Fleet.

From this selection of Dora’s, it appears that one example was chosen for extensive flight-testing by NII VVS. However, as Russian types in production such as the Yak-3 and La-7, were according to the Dora test pilots better aircraft, the remaining examples were not flown. It appears that they ended their days being used for gun sighting and identification training on the ground by Russian pilots of the 322 IAD before probably being scrapped.

The subject of Soviet Dora testing and operational use based on surviving photographic evidence has been over the years open to much speculation and conjecture. This includes photographic evidence, apparently in a US Military Review circa 1948/49, showing a pair of Dora’s stationed at Görden, SW of Brandenburg. According to the article these two Dora’s remained on the Russian inventory as trainers until late 1949 until one of them crashing in Latvia during March of the same year. If any readers can throw any light on the unnamed US Military Review or has additional information on Soviet D-9’s, please contact the article author.

[sources]
“Under the Red Star” by Carl Fredrik Geust (Airlife 1993)
Email correspondence with Carl-Fredrik Geust 17/10/03"


from the LEMB board

VVS = Voenno-Vozdushnye Sily > Soviet Air Force

The VVS is not the air arm of the Soviet Navy, which operated the Doras.

Offline ATA

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« Reply #400 on: December 06, 2005, 09:39:03 AM »
Actually VVS stands for-Military Air Force:)

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #401 on: December 06, 2005, 01:01:20 PM »
I am vry interested in any source docs re this La7 to FW performance trial.

I have the following translation with respect to a performance trial with an 109 G4

Fund of NII VVS, inv. 485716, file 273

         Approved. Chief Engineer of VVS A.Repin, 11 Oct 1944

                        THE STATEMENT
on results of verification trials of a serial La-7 with ASh-82FN engine and
                 VISh-105V-4 propeller, D=3.1m
        /ac.No 45210203, prod. in July 1944 by factory No 21/


                   Air combat with Me-109G-4

In horizontal manoeuvring up to 5000m the La-7 gets on the tail of
the Me-109 for an aimed shot after 3-4 turns. Above 5000 m the advantage of
La-7 in horizontal manoeuvre decreases. At an altitude of 7000m horizontal
manoeuverability of both planes is equal.

In vertical manoeuvring the La-7 has an obvious advantage over the Me-109
up to 3500m and can keep an altitude dominance of 150m during combat. When
it reaches an altitude of 3500m the La-7 slightly loses its superiority over
the Me-109 in vertical manoeuverability, but even at 7000m the La-7 can
maintain a dominance of about 40-50m. At 6500-7000m the vertical
manoeuverability of both planes is equal.

The La-7 accelerates into the dive faster than the Me-109 and therefore can
reduce the distance to an escaping target. However, in continuous dive the
Me-109 increases its speed faster after initial acceleration and departs from
the La-7.



Unfortunately the comparison is virtually without hard data.

a future trial to acertain the left right turn efficiencies recorded the following.

Approved. Chief engineer of VVS A.Repin, 29 Dec 45

                     The statement No 222
on results of verification trials of La-7 with ASh-82FN engine and VISh-105V-4
propeller in order to determine manoeuverability characteristics
/ a/c No 38100869, plant No 381, prod. of July 1945 /

Lead pilots: major Kubyshkin A.G., captain Pikulenko D.G.

                           Brief data

The complete verification trials were to determine the difference between right
and left manoeuvres and influence of the engine mode on manoeuverability
characteristics (360deg. turns at 1000 and 5000m, combat turns and split-Ss)
are to be done for the first time.

The plane has been tested with normal flight weight of 3310kg at nominal
engine mode (Ps=1000mm of Me. pile, n=2400RPM).

                          Conclusion.

1. La-7 does manoeuvres better backward to propeller rotation's direction,
as well as Yak-3.

2. The difference between right and left manoeuvres for La-7 is less than
for Yak-3 (the difference in time of right and left turns is 0.3-0.7 sec
for La-7 and 1.0 sec for Yak-3).

                          Inferences.

1. La-7 No 38100869 has following manoeuverability characteristics:

a) optimum extreme sustained turn

H,m...Direction...IAS,km/h.....Time,sec.........Radius,m.......Bank angle,deg.

1000.right.........320-340......21.0-21.2........305-335........70.7-71.4
.........left..........320-340.....20.7-21.0........290-315........71.2-71.5
5000.right..........280-290.....30.7................485-500........64.3-64.8
.........left..........280-290.....30.0................470-490........65.4-65.7



203 was a standard early production unit.....869 was a 3 cannon unit with the latest inlet filters installed in the wings.

I assume that LW experts here can take known 109G4 performance figures and transpose those with the FW190?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 01:14:31 PM by Tilt »
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #402 on: December 06, 2005, 04:01:15 PM »
Thanks for sharing Milo!

You buy that book at Barnes and Noble?

Good buy!




Hey Tilt,

The report puts the FW-190A5 turning 360 degree in 22.6 degrees at 1 KM.


All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 04:16:46 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #403 on: December 06, 2005, 04:20:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

Hey Tilt,

The report puts the FW-190A5 turning 360 degree in 22-23 degrees.


All the best,

Crumpp


22-23 secs?  which would broadly correlate to min v min and max v max a 2 sec advantage per 360 between 10 and 12 circuits per lapping........but then the circuit diameter will decide when a shot is available.

Do you have a copy of this report you can forward?
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #404 on: December 06, 2005, 04:32:58 PM »
Quote
Do you have a copy of this report you can forward?


No unfortunately I cannot share this one.  Although I am privy to parts of the report pertaining to the Focke Wulf, I do not have the whole thing.  

Quote
“Under the Red Star” by Carl Fredrik Geust (Airlife 1993)


Was the wall even down then??  Oh wait it had just fallen.  

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 04:48:17 PM by Crumpp »