Author Topic: What happened to LW?  (Read 20932 times)

Offline Krusty

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #90 on: November 24, 2005, 03:58:51 PM »
Grits you can test for top speed, sure, but the issues that have changed with the LW rides (as I listed) are more roll/turn/stability related. Those aspects (especially the stability, but not so much the roll rate) are harder to pin-point, especially if there were no "before" tests done.

Offline Crumpp

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #91 on: November 24, 2005, 04:07:29 PM »
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This is a good example of why you can not put too much stock in anecdotes from even real Ace pilots accounts unless backed up with test data. Humans, in all of their sensory perception are good at feeling relative changes in state, but not absolute values.


It is not putting too much stock in "human" perceptions Grits when the aircraft is modeled off tests performed by nations at war without properly trained maintenance or flight personnel for the type.

The FW190's FM is based off allied test's not Rechlin or Focke Wulf data.  

I am sure there would be an uproar if German or Japanese data was used to model any allied aircraft.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Waffle

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #92 on: November 24, 2005, 04:08:24 PM »
Actually - I'm sure it's pretty easy to look at the data tables used for the flight models , then look at them again...then say..."Hey did you change anything on the flight model Pyro?, cause the kids are getting uppity again thinking there's been a change..."

"Nope Hitech,  haven't changed a thing"....


"Well I'll go relay the message again to the via the Bulliten board threads, but for some reason they don't believe it.."

Offline Crumpp

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2005, 04:08:57 PM »
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Grits you can test for top speed, sure, but the issues that have changed with the LW rides (as I listed) are more roll/turn/stability related. Those aspects (especially the stability, but not so much the roll rate) are harder to pin-point, especially if there were no "before" tests done.


Agreed.

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I will put the challenge out to anyone. They fly the FW-190A5 and I will take a Spitfire Mk Vb. We start the fight co-alt and I will own them in that Spitfire.


Still stands.  Maybe I just suck and do not know how to fly it? I am willing to see if that is the case.

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"Well I'll go relay the message again to the via the Bulliten board threads, but for some reason they don't believe it.."


Yes.  Because we are playing the game for now.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: November 24, 2005, 04:27:00 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Morpheus

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #94 on: November 24, 2005, 04:29:55 PM »
First, I said it the other night and I will say it again.

We were talking about LW planes.

The only reason to fly them is because they're harder to fly and be any good in than almost 95% of the other fighters in the hanger.

Can someone tell me how a late war ride like the K4 has flaps that can not be lowered above 200mph? But those same people designing those K4's and building them managed to build the first Jet fighter? ROCKET powered fighter? Im sorry I do not buy it.
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Offline Slash27

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #95 on: November 24, 2005, 04:31:04 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
I will put the challenge out to anyone.  They fly the FW-190A5 and I will take a Spitfire Mk Vb.  We start the fight co-alt and I will own them in that Spitfire.

Crumpp



ok

Offline Crumpp

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #96 on: November 24, 2005, 04:38:09 PM »
When and what time?

Offline Grits

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #97 on: November 24, 2005, 04:45:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
It is not putting too much stock in "human" perceptions Grits when the aircraft is modeled off tests performed by nations at war without properly trained maintenance or flight personnel for the type.

The FW190's FM is based off allied test's not Rechlin or Focke Wulf data.


I agree with you Crumpp, I do believe that data commonly used to model LW aircraft, and Axis planes in general, is Allied test data that is not the most accurate. I dont believe that the two main LW rides, the 109 and 190 were as bad in the real world relative to their Allied counterparts as they are in AH or the Germans would have lost the war in 1942.

My only beef is a separate issue with the unfounded claims that HT changes flight models with every patch. It never fails, we get a patch to fix a bug in the hangar menu and someone will claim the 109F-4 doesnt climb as well as it did. When they did the 190's, I even thought they changed the FM, for just a second I thought the 190A-8 was greatly improved then I realized I was in the A-5 not the A-8. That started me testing planes, and now I retest them after every patch where there are claims of different performance. I have yet to find a change.

Offline Slash27

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #98 on: November 24, 2005, 05:10:29 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
When and what time?


 Im going over to some friends house for a bit, so maybe later tonight or sometime this weekend. What ever is easiest.

Offline Crumpp

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #99 on: November 24, 2005, 05:19:34 PM »
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I have yet to find a change.


Something changed with the characteristics of the aircraft.  With a 1.5KM seperation and a significant altitude advantage, it was impossible to reverse on a Spit Vb.  He was able to catch me every time in an FW190A5.

I did not need that much seperation to effectively reverse when AH2 first came out on the Spit Vc!!

HTC should IMHO check it out instead of saying "Nothing has changed" like we are just silly idiots or "Luftwhining".

HTC can "Luftwhine" my check right out their account with that kind of attitude.

I remember when the FW190 cockpits were updated and some folks claimed the FM had changed.  I knew it had not and only a couple of people even responded in that thread.  The thread died quickly.  My response was "nothing has changed" in that thread because it was true.

This is 2 pages long with a much larger number of folks all saying the same thing.

It may very well be that nothing has changed with the FM itself.  However something has changed as the fights are not the same and frankly are not much fun at all.

Sounds good Slash, btw.  I will be looking for you.

Anyone else that would like to test them out in a "tactical trial" or air to air combat should let me know if you see me online.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline DoKGonZo

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #100 on: November 24, 2005, 05:33:03 PM »
This all reminds me of a story from the days of Air Warrior. Way back when, AW ran on 4 different platforms - Mac, Atari ST, Amiga, and the PC. A version was released and all of a sudden Amiga FW's were handling better that anyone else's Spitfires. You could tell in one turn if the FW you were up against was an Amiga it was so pronounced.

Kesmai checked and re-checked their data and swore on a flock of sheep that the data feeding all four versions was identical. Finally, mercifully, months later, they found the "non existant" problem. They had a logic error in calculating the weight of fuel - it was inverted on the Amiga front end code. So a fully loaded Fw on an Amiga weighed that it weighed dry *minus* the weight of fuel.

So even if the data is right sometimes something else gets changed - sometimes by accident - which messes things up. I ain't saying that has happened here, but as a very wise man once told me: "Different things vary."

As for the low-speed handling on all the LW planes, it's not that I expect them to turn better; I just wish they didn't try to flip over at the slightest pull of the stick if I'm under 150. It just seems odd that 3 very different planes (109, 110, 190) all from the same country exhibit the exact same weird flight characteristic. Of course, I rarely fly the German planes (largely because of this) so maybe with more practice I could compensate. Dunno - just seems bizzah.

Offline MANDO

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #101 on: November 24, 2005, 06:06:36 PM »
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Originally posted by Wilbus
IThis is just another thread on list, another one that will be labeled an LW whine thread.


not without me IN Wilbus ;)

Hey Crummp, what happened with all that 190 info sent to Pyro?

Offline 1K3

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #102 on: November 24, 2005, 06:41:40 PM »
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Originally posted by MANDO
not without me IN Wilbus ;)

Hey Crummp, what happened with all that 190 info sent to Pyro?


Most of the infos are just about 190's CoG right?

Offline Crumpp

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #103 on: November 24, 2005, 08:33:07 PM »
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Hey Crummp, what happened with all that 190 info sent to Pyro?


Nothing.  You notice any changes?  Basically I quit doing it.  Pyro is not working on the FW190 FM's as other things have priority.  When I have talked to him, not much can be "simulated" to make the FW190 more realistic due to code restrictions.  

I would say it has about zero priority.  

Now it seems HTC attitude is anyone who offers is "cherry picking".  Sorry but I am not going to put forth the effort, time, and money to get them the data with that kind of crap.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: November 24, 2005, 08:58:36 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Morpheus

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What happened to LW?
« Reply #104 on: November 24, 2005, 09:11:01 PM »
did they just forget to add the combat flaps? Or not feel like it? Or not have enough data to model them in? Whats the deal?

Every single thing I've read on the net regarding the 109 talks about even in the breifest of explanations, the use of combat flaps on the 109s.
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