Frame 1 Results - Miracle of Dunkirk

[skernsk]

Points

Allied - 1270
Axis - 1150

As any who were there, you are probably surprised by the points total.  None more than I.  Obviouosly the points system (that I am new to working with) needs some work.  So, I am trashing that system and going to revert back to what I used to use when CMing an event.

That system is my judgement.

I am scoring frame 1 an AXIS VICTORY.  2 of 3 objectives were completely destroyed, the PT boats got through unscathed.  Also, Axis planes scored more kills than the Allied side did.


New Points Total

Axis - 1
Allied - 0


I invite you to comment on the frame and whether or not you enjoyed it.  I read from the last FSO some players were unhappy.  What I tried to do was create a frame full of action (as low as I could).


Thanks to APDrone for running another flawless frame from the set-up perspective.

[doobs]

Originally posted by skernsk
Points

Allied - 1270
Axis - 1150
 

[Hornet33]

Actually I can belive that. Even though the Axis scored more fighter kills we didn't hit any PT boats. These are the boats (I assume) that are getting the british troops out of the country and back to England? We failed to kill any so the Allies won a victory because they saved their troops which is the whole point of the frame. History repeating itself with the Luftwaffe failing to stop the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force from the European mainland. Those PT boats were worth some points that we didn't get.

Even though I'm flying Axis this go around and the squad I belong to (JG44) had an awsome night, we did fail in our primary mission. To take the win from the Allies, I don't feel is right. They saved those boats because we failed to look for them and find them.

Give the win to the Allies, they earned it. Besides it's the honorable thing to do because the Axis screwed up by not killing the boats.

[GunnerCAF]

As many senerios, in history, one side had an advantage and won.  When we recreate and play the senerio, they are scored so that the side with the disadvantage has a point advantage.  So the winner will do better then history.

From what I have read, this was a retreat for the Brits (Allied).  This should mean the Allies need to get the troops out, not who got them most kills.

I think it matters little who won the points, but it matters who had fun.  Fun is what brings us back.  I am on the Allied side, and I think we got wooped bad and I don't disagree with that.  But it is just wrong to change change the scoring system after the frame!  If you feel the axis needs help, then change the scoring sysem before the next frame.  But I think a better solution will be to not change the rules and let the Axis change their strategy to get more points.

Gunner

[BBQ_Bob]

So if you use the logic that the allies win because none of the PT Boats were sunk that would mean that the allies would not even have to show for the frame. Even if only 1 allied pilot was flying the frame the Axis would lose because the PT's were not sunk, that's just crazy.
 I strongly disagree the Axis forces totally destroyed 2 of our objectives I have never seen a frame that said every objective had to be destroyed to secure a victory. The scoring imo is an Axis victory. This was pretty much a one sided frame. All Axis squads worked hard to secure the victory and to say that they do not deserve it because all objectives were not totally destroyed is just wrong.

to all

[GunnerCAF]

I don't like the logic... I don't like the results so here is how I feel.  This is not logic  

Gunner

[Hornet33]

My point is this. The difference between who won and who lost is 120 points. A PT boat was worth what? 15 points I think. The Allies launched 28 PT boats last night for a total of 420 points floating out there in the water. The landed those succesfully and therefore got rewarded for it by winning the frame. If the Axis had killed just 10 of those boats we would have won, but we didn't. Sending our stukas on a sucide run cost us also. Even though we dominated with our fighters we lost the frame. While I'm disapointed that we lost the frame, I'm more disapointed that the CM is going to toss the score out the window because he doesn't feel that it acurately reflects what happened last night when in fact it does.

The Allies won plain and simple. If the Axis wants to win the battle then we need to pull our heads out of our third point of contact and plan better.

[BBQ_Bob]

If the only thing to do secure a victory was to get PT boats to the port then why would we have 2 other objectives? This was an Axis victory no two ways about it. If there had been some sort of stipulation that said you have to kill all the PT boats or you lose I would have sent every squad to find them and ignored the other objectives but that is not the case. That's like if we were playing football and the score was Axis 50 , Allies 3 the allies would win cause the score was not 50 -0.

[Hornet33]

I'm NOT saying the frame was ALL about killing the PT boats. The PT boats are the same as our stukas were. They were points. EVERYTHING in the frame is worth a certain amount of points. We pissed our stukas away so they could get back up in 109's as fast as they could. THAT cost us. Their PT boats made it to their objective and landed, there by saving those points (420) for the Allied side. THAT won it for them. Your Operation Lamb Slaughter worked for you during Operation Husky, but this time it bit us in the butt and we lost. You gave the Allied side the win by sending our stukas in the way you did. How many points did that COST us?? The Axis plan was flawed from the begining. Despite our overwhelming success in the fighters we didn't do enough damage to win.

To change the outcome because some doesn't think it should have turned out the way it did is plain unfair. If the CM's are going to disregard the scores because they feel like it, then whats the use of having the score system at all?? It's dishonest and unfair, especially to the guys that had to drive those PT boats for however long they had to, before they could re-up in fighters. They completed their mission, we failed to stop them, and we SHOULD pay for that.

What I want to know is this. Is this game all about the win??? If this score is going to stand, and no one is going to do the honorable thing by letting the actual scores stand, then I will no longer being participating in FSO.

[Dantoo]

I am trying to be objective first, but reading that just p'ed me off so:

Because Allies were forced to put one third of their people in unarmed pt's at the start,  it meant that the aerial defenders over Dunkirk were on a hiding to nothing.  They died buying time to get the boats across the channel.  The scenario was planned that way - and presumably scoring was planned to reflect it.

So let's see, allies start with about a 30% defecit in numbers overall, reduce that by another 30% for naval duties, because they chose to read and obey the RULES.

This means Allies have a fraction of the numbers, inferior aircraft and they can't even choose when and where to engage.  How bad was it for allied fighters?  Check the stats and see how many "shared" my kill.  The four that got me showed simply that the other four shooting at me can't shoot straight.  Hell yeah that was fun.

I took it philosophically because the scenario set my job (and that of my squad) to delay the almighty Luftwaffe to buy time to get the troops out.  Gee we shot a few down and so got a point or two.  Every Ju87 we managed to kill rose again, phoenix like, as a 109 to come back and hit us again.  NP, it was part of the RULES.  So great were the odds that the poor Luftys were forced to vulch damaged planes landing to get a kill.  NP from me because its all in the RULES.  Rules which we signed on to after we read the scenario brief.  I remember reading a rule about when the Luftwaffe were allowed to attack  Dunkirk.  NP they got there early.  Meant that we were jumped as we arrived.  NP, complaining about that would be whining, right?

I came in here to see if I could find something positive to pass along to the squad about what they achieved.  Now I have to go back and tell them that FSO has suddenly become a disgraceful sham because a furballing CM doesn't like, doesn't respect and unilaterally decides to change the RULES, simply because he thinks he has the right.

Mate I don't who made you a CM but you don't have that right.  They should have explained that to you.  I hope somebody takes the time now.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by Dantoo

So let's see, allies start with about a 30% defecit in numbers overall, reduce that by another 30% for naval duties, because they chose to read and obey the RULES.

This means Allies have a fraction of the numbers, inferior aircraft and they can't even choose when and where to engage.  How bad was it for allied fighters?  Check the stats and see how many "shared" my kill.  The four that got me showed simply that the other four shooting at me can't shoot straight.  Hell yeah that was fun.

I gotta say, I agree with Dantoo on this.. I think its absurd to claim a AXIS victory when the very scenario put such a huge portion of the Allies in the water with no guns.  The AXIS could have and SHOULD have won the scenario by destroying those boats, they were 30 points a piece but instead stalled for a furball.  

You can't claim a grand aerial victory when the opponent was tied up in unarmed boats... What a CROCK.  If this frame was supposed to be about aerial fighting the put both forces up in fighters.  

Oh, all hail the grand axis forces for defeating the allies who were 60% of their actual numbers... Whatever.  Hermann Goering was fond of reporting false victories to Hitler... I guess thats what this is.

I came in here to see if I could find something positive to pass along to the squad about what they achieved.  Now I have to go back and tell them that FSO has suddenly become a disgraceful sham because a furballing CM doesn't like, doesn't respect and unilaterally decides to change the RULES, simply because he thinks he has the right.

Mate I don't who made you a CM but you don't have that right.  They should have explained that to you.  I hope somebody takes the time now.

Ok, I don't know if I agree with the fire and tenacity in the second part of this post, but I understand the feeling.  Allies flew and sailed the mission exactly as requested and with resounding success... The AXIS FAILED to defeat it's primary objective and is being rewarded for that.

BBQBOB made the argument that the ALLIED could have won by simply failing to up the PT's, but come on BOB, you know full well that Failure to Appear is just as bad as loss, so thats a mute arguement... There were DOZENS upon DOZENS of PT boats out there that the Axis never even took a pot-shot at... We were there, where were you?

I think changing the rules after play has begun is disgraceful and I think the Allies achieved their primary goal (getting the PT's home) and the Axis FAILED at their primary goal of stopping them.

At the end of the day, what you are saying by changing the outcome is that you favor air fights over stratigy... And if thats the case, why the heck did you draw up this FSO in the first place?   Allies did the job expertly and deserve credit for it.

[skernsk]

Well, truth be told I figured that if I posted the points as they were I would be roasted alive by the players.  Seems I was wrong and trying to fix what I thought was a broken points system was a worse mistake.

Go ahead and post your thoughts, but keep the 'Fuballing CM' stuff to yourself.  That does not accurately describe me.

Why did I write this event.  There was a FSO we just finished that had several comments that it was not fun, the action was too high .. etc.

so, I thought.  What do you want, low fights, more action.  So I came up with this concept.  My GOAL was for the players to enjoy it and truth be told I never looked at points as a player, just what my mission was and my role on my side.

I care not who wins or loses as long as its fun.  Hopefully it was that.

[Hornet33]

What makes FSO fun is the strategy involved. The well thought out and executed plan that brings victory to your side. 3 frames to get the score in your sides favor. The scoring system works just fine. The fact that the Axis lost this frame has people pissed off and the fact that you decided to toss the score out the window and give the Axis the victory has even more people pissed off. I flew for the Axis but we failed to achive all our objectives. WE LOST!!!! I'm not afraid to say it. They won fair and square. Their PT boats survived and that saved them 420 points. We pissed our stukas away and that cost us. Declaring the Allies the winner is the right thing to do.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by skernsk

Go ahead and post your thoughts, but keep the 'Fuballing CM' stuff to yourself.  That does not accurately describe me.

Why did I write this event.  There was a FSO we just finished that had several comments that it was not fun, the action was too high .. etc.

so, I thought.  What do you want, low fights, more action.  So I came up with this concept.  My GOAL was for the players to enjoy it and truth be told I never looked at points as a player, just what my mission was and my role on my side.

I care not who wins or loses as long as its fun.  Hopefully it was that.

But we DO care who wins and loses AND we want to have fun.

The mission was fun.  I was in a PT... I was expecting to be shot at and I wasn't... I would have had more fun if the Axis had pressed the attack...  But it was actually a very fun frame.

You can't just toss away the objective in favor of 'FUN'.  Thats bull... Thats an arcade game and I don't think anyone who shows up for FSO is looking for arcade fun.

You laid out the rules... According to the rules allies won.  

We flew and sailed the rules you gave us and we are being punished for that... That is not only NOT fun.. But... Will make anyone question your intentions in the future... I don't mean to be harsh, but honestly... Next time am I supposed to just have fun?  Or am I supposed to perform my duty according to your mission plan?  Because if you're going to just take the victory away I can have a lot more fun sitting with my girlfriend in the other room with a good movie and some wine.

This is only fun when there is a known purpose... And that is what you've taken away...

If you didn't give a darn about the PT's, then why did you waste 30 minutes of my life driving one?  If it was all about air-to-air, then why was I in a PT?

[BBQ_Bob]

I feel what this really should come down to is the objectives, there were 3 we destroyed 2 in my book we destroyed more then was saved. I am not sure where everyone is getting their information about how much the PT's were worth point wise, but the write up I got said they were worth 10, not 30 or 15 or anything else. So I have to say 2 out of 3 destroyed is an Axis victory. If not then what's the point of having 3 objectives at all? I say we put this one behind us and move foward.