could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)

[Shaky]

I've been reading this thread with intrest, and one thing that the former Communists and current Stalinistdon't seem to get is this....

Basic human rights are NOT "given" by a government, rather they are divine rights that are inherent in all men. Basically, man has a basic right to be free by his very nature. "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Governments may abridge these rights, but they do not "grant" them. Inteference with these rights are what seperate free societies from opressed ones. The belief that thse rights are "granted" by a government, instead of being a basic fact of human existance, is what seperates freedom from totalinarism.

[Vad]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Your emplyer does not own you.

You really dont get it.

Czar doesn't own me too. He has right to make laws, or order me to do something in scope of my responsibilties. It is the same what democratic presidents or parlaments can do.
Only difference between president and Czar that Czar rules forever, but President is elected for limited time.
If you have good person on Czar's job why should you change  him?

And I would say more.

Free people will produce, oppressed people will just take whatever is given to them.......like sheep.

Nuke tried to insult but actually he is right. European countries have no natural resources, their prosperity based on the necessity to produce goods. Free market and competition were proved to be the most suitable to achieve success in this. And democracy society is most adequate for such type of production.

If country prosperity bases on natural resources competition doesn't work, and it's even harmful. There are limited number of minefields, and you can't increase this number. If they were private very limited number of companies or persons  would get the major part of national income. Any competition would be senseless because you can't compete with the pipe of oil. It doesn't matter how hard you work, how good products you produce, how effective methods and innovations you are using. That guy with pipe will get more money anyway.

The results of this disparity is the actual control of the goverment by the small group of those who own resources. They have money, more money than all others taken together, and they will win elections. Controlling elected goverment they have actual control over country, more effective than Czar or Stalin had.

It is not a fantasy. It is exactly what happened in Russia in 1990-1995.

And you hate democracy IN RUSSIA because Russian democracy in fact becomes more totalitarian than even stalinism. Stalin, at least, didn't think about his own pocket, he thought about contry. New "democrats" who control oil are thinking only about their inerests. And have enough power and money to do whtever they want.
If other world was clever enough they would pray about new Czar in Russia. That morons with the oil are thinking about only their interests, and don't worry about others. In fact they have enough power, all power of Russia, and complete control over everything but have no responsibility.

BTW, Russia has nuclear weapons, and they control it too...

[Shaky]

Originally posted by Vad
Czar doesn't own me too. He has right to make laws, or order me to do something in scope of my responsibilties. It is the same what democratic presidents or parlaments can do.
Only difference between president and Czar that Czar rules forever, but President is elected for limited time.
If you have good person on Czar's job why should you change  him?

 

From what source does the "Czar" have the right to make laws? On what authority is he named Czar? How does he have the "right" to order you to do ANYTHING (unless you have done something to accept his authority, such as join the military)?

You seem to have a severe misunderstanding of what rights mean to Americans, and exactly what the President can and can not do.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Vad what point is there to prove? You said it yourself, Boroda said it too - yiu want a singular strongman charismatic leader to run the country and take accountability away from individuals and put it on the state's power to punish people who dont execute his orders.

Punishing people who dont follow orders exactly is not making them accountable, it simply makes them mindless robots - it makes them Russians.

Which why you are so comfortable in that, its all yiur perople have known for hundreds of years under the mongols, czars, soviets, and now Putin.

I don't mean execution or cutting trees in the North as a punishment. I only expect a person at the high position who's making stupid decisions to be fired. What we need is just some responsibility, now there's no responsibility above certain "level of command". But according to Western understanding of "democracy" any attempt to make people responsible is declared a violation of human rights and neo-stalinism. That's why I call myself a stalinist.

Stalinism = a regime where responsibility corresponds to a level of decisions, especially in emergency conditions. I don't want to see bastards like Gaidar or Kirienko hanged on lamp posts, but I'll not regret if they'll be, and I'll be the last person to stop people from doing it. I'll be quite satisfied if they'll get fired with a ban for any administration jobs.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by detch01
If you live here and you can equate Russia to Canada you obviously haven't got a friggin clue. There is food here. The queen's cowboys won't show up in the middle of the night to arrest you. The only way to get arrested in this country is to be accused of committing a crime that is listed in the Canadian criminal code. You won't get arrested for pissing off a politico. Kidnapping isn't a national pass-time, nor is it considered "just good business". As a matter of fact, the whole kidnapping/assassination gig doesn't go over well here. I could go on.

Buy a book about Canada. Spend some time with the book open and your nose buried in it. You might learn something.

I am sorry to blow your bubble - but the same thing worked in USSR. You got arrested only if you committed a crime listed in Criminal codex. Kidnapping was a crime punshed severely.

USSR wasn't an inhuman killing regime, as you have been told. It's another myth of XX century.

Your common mistake is that you believe what you have been told, and we know how it really was, we lived in USSR. Some things you say really make us laugh.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Boroda
I don't mean execution or cutting trees in the North as a punishment. I only expect a person at the high position who's making stupid decisions to be fired.

But since Stalinism sent three million of "those responsible" to their death in Kolyma, then I guess you are not a Stalinist.

[Vad]

Originally posted by Shaky
From what source does the "Czar" have the right to make laws? On what authority is he named Czar? How does he have the "right" to order you to do ANYTHING (unless you have done something to accept his authority, such as join the military)?

You seem to have a severe misunderstanding of what rights mean to Americans, and exactly what the President can and can not do.

Czar, or President, or Parlament can do that and alwasy did that the same way - using law.

They issue a law, and you must have insurance to drive a car, you must report any car incident to police, you must pay taxes and social insurance. You must don't smoke in public places, you must serve in military (ok, the last is in democratic Israel and Europe, not in America)

They order to that - and you do that. And have no chances to change anything here.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by mietla
And Vad,

My daugthers will never, ever go hungry unless the dudes like Boroda and you are effective enough to convice the good US folks that freedom sucks, and that the goverment is the source of all the goodies and food as well.


With all due respect, stay where you feel comfortable. Why screw Canada. They are screwed enough without imported commie lovers. My sister's family lives there, I know

Well, the hidden secret of prosperity is: don't have your country invaded every 50 years, look at wars as a good investment and build your country at a warm place (NYC is at the same latitude as Kiev, and in Moscow we have less then 20 days a year when warmer then +20C).

I never starved in my life. My Father was born in 1926, and he lived in Leningrad during the War... My Mother is from Ukrainian family, and my grandparents were starving in 1933. After 1947 there was no hunger in USSR. More to say, since 1991 average meat consumption decreased two times! Yes! Hail Democracy! We are ****ing free now! ß ñâîáîäåí, ÿ çàáûë ÷òî çíà÷èò ñòðàõ, âàøó ìàòü!

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Boroda
Well, the hidden secret of prosperity is: don't have your country invaded every 50 years,  

Germany seemed to do pretty good within a few years of it's total destruction, twice within 50 years. Try again.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
But since Stalinism sent three million of "those responsible" to their death in Kolyma, then I guess you are not a Stalinist.

I asked you to define "stalinism". If it's your definition - then I'm not a stalinist. I simply picked up a term used by our liberal-right bastards who still want to seize and divide what's left here in Russia. It's obvious that they don't want to be responsible for what they do.

Pure numbers: in 1996 RF with it's population of 150 millions had 2 (two) times more government administration employees then USSR (approx. 300 millions) had in 1990. I work to feed all that army of parasites. In last 9 years it had grown at least twice, statistics is not availible any more. Hail Democracy! 4 times more parasites then in USSR! 8 times more per capita! Hail! Heil!

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Boroda
Hail Democracy! 4 times more parasites then in USSR! 8 times more per capita! Hail! Heil!

Everyone under communism was a parasite.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by NUKE
Germany seemed to do pretty good within a few years of it's total destruction, twice within 50 years. Try again.

Thanks for an advise.

The situation now is worse then in Germany in 1932. Guess what can happen, and don't tell me that I didn't warn you.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Boroda
Thanks for an advise.

The situation now is worse then in Germany in 1932. Guess what can happen, and don't tell me that I didn't warn you.

Why is the situation so bad? Is it because you have no resources, or is it because you have corrupt people running the place?

[Shaky]

Originally posted by Vad
Czar, or President, or Parlament can do that and alwasy did that the same way - using law.

They issue a law, and you must have insurance to drive a car, you must report any car incident to police, you must pay taxes and social insurance. You must don't smoke in public places, you must serve in military (ok, the last is in democratic Israel and Europe, not in America)

They order to that - and you do that. And have no chances to change anything here.

The President does not "issue" laws, the various legislatures do, local, state and federal. If we do not like the laws they are passing, we can vote em out. BIG difference between the Czars and "President" there.

Additionaly, our constitution specifies what the  government can do. What few seem to realize outside this country is that the U.S. constitution was created to LIMIT governmen, and its power. It specifies that our government is derived by the consent of the people, and, by extrapolation, that consent can be removed. This is the major diference between a free society and one that is not.

Again, by what authority is the Czar granted this power?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Vad

3) (and the most important) In Czar's Russia there were no problems for Russians to visit abroad, ruble was one of the most strong currency in the world. I've  never said that I suggest to close borders. If country is rich enough any country in the world would be more than happy to have you as a tourist or even resident. Sauds don't have any problems with visas to  Europe or America, do they? If you don't like to live in rich and prosperous country, don't want to have very good and stable income but pay for this by some restrictions in your rights and freedoms - ok, no problem, you are free to go wherever you want.

This mechanism worked for centuries, it works know for middle east monarchies, and I believe it would work for Russia.

Well, you are not right. Borders were closed by Alexey Mikhailovich during a famine in Europe, and since that time it was... well... not easy to leave Russia. In modern times (since Nikolay Pavlovich) you had to get a "foreign passport" approved by authorities. In that times it was obviously easier to control emigration this way, commies simply copied this practice, IMHO it was a great mistake. Countries of people's democracy had much softer emigration laws, ask Mietla