could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)

[Estel]

Originally posted by NUKE
The USSR controlled an area much larger, and with more resources than the US ever had, yet they went tits up.

Israel turned a piece of crap land into an oasis.

Free people will produce, oppressed people will just take whatever is given to them.......like sheep.

Yes. Israel is an oasis. But 50 years they live in state of permanent war.

Free people? What is your freedom? You are the same slaves as any others. You must pay taxes and follow rules. You can't look at women because she can accuse you in 'sexual harassment', you can't name negro as negro because you will be accused in racism. All your life you are playing in the 'Democratic elections' games and always getting the bastard who just payd for PR a little much more then other candidates. You will die in ER room just because you had nothing to pay for you medical insurance. Is it your freedom? You are teaching the whole world for how to live, but can't solve your own problems with criminal.

[NUKE]

Boroda, here is what I am trying to tell you:

You have a country of great natural resources, smart, edjucated people, a people more than willing and able to work. You guys have all the building blocks that you could ever need to rebuild your country into a GREAT country.

The only thing you guys lack is the realisation within the people that they control their fate and their country.

[Estel]

Originally posted by NUKE
The only thing you guys lack is the realisation within the people that they control their fate and their country.

NUKE, the only you need to teach us is to come here to Russia and live here for 2-3 years.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Estel
NUKE, the only you need to teach us is to come here to Russia and live here for 2-3 years.

Maybe you should live here in the US for a few years, then re evaluate your outlook.

[NUKE]

Estel, do you ever wonder why Tawain is so successful, for so many years? They have a fraction of resources that you have. What about Japan? They have few resources. What do you think makes the difference for them?

Why are they successful and rich, while you guys can't even feed yourselves?

South Korea and North Korea........what's the difference between them?

Do you think it's just luck?

[Vad]

Originally posted by NUKE
Estel, do you ever wonder why Tawain is so successful, for so many years? They have a fraction of resources that you have. What about Japan? They have few resources. What do you think makes the difference for them?

Why are they successful and rich, while you guys can't even feed yourselves?

South Korea and North Korea........what's the difference between them?

Do you think it's just luck?

Nuke, it is impossible to keep any conversation if we would up again and again the same old subjects.

North Korea cut from the world market. Economical sanctions, lack of  access to modern technologies, lack of investments, etc... South Korea enjoes military and economical support from USA, and doesn't need to spend a lot of money for self defence.
It is politics, not economics. USA and "free" world punish North Korea for not being like others. Psychology of hordes - those who are not like we  should die.

If you want to talk about pure economics let talk about Mexico and the USA. The same continent, the same start positions, the same political system, no UN sanctions and no need for Mexico to worry about self defence, but so huge difference - why? Corruption and incompetent goverment? But why Mexican democracy didn't solve this problem during the last 150 years?

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Vad
If you want to talk about pure economics let talk about Mexico and the USA. The same continent, the same start positions, the same political system, no UN sanctions and no need for Mexico to worry about self defence, but so huge difference - why? Corruption and incompetent goverment? But why Mexican democracy didn't solve this problem during the last 150 years?

Not the same political system, not even close. Mexico does not have a US constitution or bill of rights. Mexican law presumes guilt until proven inocent, US law presumes innocence until proven guilty. A HUGE difference right there.

Mexico  has probably more resources than the US. The only thing that keeps Mexico a watermelon hole is it's government.

[NUKE]

North Korea was cut from the world market? Why? What does North Korea produce that the world needs?

North Korea cut itself off from the world market. North Korea can't feed itself, South Korea is rich.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Vad
If you want to talk about pure economics let talk about Mexico and the USA. The same continent, the same start positions, the same political system, no UN sanctions and no need for Mexico to worry about self defence, but so huge difference

Why do you think that Mexico doesnt have to worry about self defence, yet North Korea does? The US borders Mexico, not North Korea. You think we invade countries for no reason? Why is Mexico not worried?

[Estel]

I do not need to live in USA. Mostly because I don't want to live in the country where I can't name the things with their original names.

Originally posted by NUKE
Estel, do you ever wonder why Tawain is so successful, for so many years? They have a fraction of resources that you have. What about Japan? They have few resources. What do you think makes the difference for them?

Why are they successful and rich, while you guys can't even feed yourselves?

South Korea and North Korea........what's the difference between them?

Do you think it's just luck?

You are taking wrong start point. It's incorrect to compare Russia and Tawain. Why? Because of territory and population. How many people live in Tawain and how many in Russia? Tawain with paradise climate and 23 millions of population (this is population of Moscow and St.Petersburg) and Russia where we have only few regions where we can grow food for 3 months in year and climate with 9 winter months.

It's more correct to compare Russia and Canada. But Canada didn't had revolution and wars from 1900. At least on their own territory. We builded industry from zero twice. After Civil war (maybe you remember, that USA didn't meet Antanta engagements to help Russia) and after WW2. And nobody helped us. Only prevented.

North Korea? Maybe you forgot, but USA is number 1-st who is preventing NK from prosperity. With economical sanctions and permanent military threats. They are forced to spend money and make every effort to resist your indefatigable wish to make them another sheep in consumers herd. Only they want is to live where they want and to live how they want.

[cpxxx]

The problem with Boroda and other ex USSR citizens like him, is that they went from a tightly controlled society. It was their norm. They were used to it and comfortable with it.  Most people are not dissidents in any country so would not draw attention to themselves. Indeed they would have been educated to believe in their way of life. Everyone had a job whether they wanted it or not. There was some sense of security, a sense of being a wider community.

Contrast that with the Russia of right now. Corruption, crime, no job security, no sense of community,  Incompetent leadership. No wonder he wants to go back to the old Stalinist ways.

The problem is that the old ways did not work nor will they every work. That's what Boroda and others cannot face up to.

On the other hand we in the west cannot understand this desire to return to the certainties of communism. In the west we have stable systems of democracy. We have a freedom of expression we usually don't need because of the society we live in. We are used to have to find our own jobs and expect to be mostly left alone to earn what we can or live where we want to. There is a safety net in social security but for the most part it is too low to have a decent standard of living and even if it did most of us have been conditioned to be ashamed to take it. The system isn't perfect but it works brilliantly most of time. You don't have to be a thief or corrupt to get rich.  

Boroda and Russians in general need stop harking back to the mythical 'good old days'. What they need is to look to the west and take the best of what we have and apply it to Russia. Right now what they have is a bastardised amalgam of old Soviet thinking and unchecked capitalism. That is the real problem. Democracy is not an 'ism'. It's simply the means people use to have a say in what happens in their country if they want to express it.

Don't say it wouldn't work in Russia.  People are the same everywhere. All we want is enough to eat, somewhere to live and the freedom to be left to get on with it for the most part.

Forget Stalinism that 'ism' is a dead as it's instigator.  Look to the future not the past.

[Vad]

Originally posted by NUKE
Not the same political system, not even close. Mexico does not have a US constitution or bill of rights. Mexican law presumes guilt until proven inocent, US law presumes innocence until proven guilty. A HUGE difference right there.

Mexico  has probably more resources than the US. The only thing that keeps Mexico a watermelon hole is it's government.

Does Mexico have democratic system? Yes.
Does France have democratic goverment? Yes. But law principles are difference in France, they use Napoleon code, which differs from English code. But it doesn't affect level of living standards, they have approximatelly the same in Britain and France.

Once again. We are talking about democracy. If democracy is panacea it should work regardless of other circumstances. But it doesn't work in Mexico, in South America, in Iraq, and actually it works only in Europe, USA and Canada. That is it. Even in Japan it works so-so, but I don't want to waste your time to prove it.
If it doesn't work with necessarity you shouldn't enforce it for those who are not ready or don't want to use this system.

[cpxxx]

Originally posted by Estel

North Korea? Maybe you forgot, but USA is number 1-st who is preventing NK from prosperity. With economical sanctions and permanent military threats. They are forced to spend money and make every effort to resist your indefatigable wish to make them another sheep in consumers herd. Only they want is to live where they want and to live how they want.

After an entirely stupid comment like that. Nothing you say can have any credibility. You should do some research on North Korea and find out the reality of the situation.

Incredible:O

[Vad]

Originally posted by cpxxx
The problem with Boroda and other ex USSR citizens like him, is that they went from a tightly controlled society. It was their norm. They were used to it and comfortable with it.  Most people are not dissidents in any country so would not draw attention to themselves. Indeed they would have been educated to believe in their way of life. Everyone had a job whether they wanted it or not. There was some sense of security, a sense of being a wider community.

Contrast that with the Russia of right now. Corruption, crime, no job security, no sense of community,  Incompetent leadership. No wonder he wants to go back to the old Stalinist ways.

The problem is that the old ways did not work nor will they every work. That's what Boroda and others cannot face up to.

On the other hand we in the west cannot understand this desire to return to the certainties of communism. In the west we have stable systems of democracy. We have a freedom of expression we usually don't need because of the society we live in. We are used to have to find our own jobs and expect to be mostly left alone to earn what we can or live where we want to. There is a safety net in social security but for the most part it is too low to have a decent standard of living and even if it did most of us have been conditioned to be ashamed to take it. The system isn't perfect but it works brilliantly most of time. You don't have to be a thief or corrupt to get rich.  

Boroda and Russians in general need stop harking back to the mythical 'good old days'. What they need is to look to the west and take the best of what we have and apply it to Russia. Right now what they have is a bastardised amalgam of old Soviet thinking and unchecked capitalism. That is the real problem. Democracy is not an 'ism'. It's simply the means people use to have a say in what happens in their country if they want to express it.

Don't say it wouldn't work in Russia.  People are the same everywhere. All we want is enough to eat, somewhere to live and the freedom to be left to get on with it for the most part.

Forget Stalinism that 'ism' is a dead as it's instigator.  Look to the future not the past.

Good post. You are nearer to the truth that anybody else.

Unfortunatelly, it is easy to say than to do... You can't change people at once , it  takes a lot of time. Moses moved them 40 years until the last slave died. If they got land before that had happened they would establish state based on slavary.

[Vad]

Originally posted by cpxxx
After an entirely stupid comment like that. Nothing you say can have any credibility. You should do some research on North Korea and find out the reality of the situation.

Incredible:O

Stupid post.
You have never been in North Korea, and there are no researches what  can prove your point.