Author Topic: It's official...  (Read 8065 times)

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #105 on: December 18, 2005, 12:28:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Dok, I see what your getting at but it will never happen, for the following reasons-

i) I would imagine that HT main player base is from the U.S.
ii) Newbs coming to the game usually look for one of the big 4 (Spit/Pony/109/190)
iii) Apart from the early models most of those are lower than ENY 10.
iv) A system that perks the Pony D at any level woud probably hurt HTC see (i) and (ii).

As for people charging into furballs, whats wrong with that?
I haven't been on recently (waiting for fix for the warpy/slidy/vanishing planes), but when the XVI was introduced there were a great many more furballs.

The reason the La7 wasn't perked was that although there certainly was a lot of them it never really managed a K/D much higher the 1.1 to 1.2, i.e. it didn't dominate the MA.
At the moment the XVI is in the same category, yup theres a lot of them, but it hasn't managed a K/D much over 1.1 . Now if it suddenly starts hitting 1.5+, then I think it may happen to get perked.

Still say the answer is to have more choices, not restrict the choices available.
[...]


Based on what I see in the MA, the reason the La7 has such a rotten K/D is that it seems to spend half its combat time in enemy AAA. If an enemy La7 is anywhere near your field, you pretty much know what it's there for. So it gets a pass or two or three - gets its one kill - and dies. Voila, K/D around 1.00.

On any nite you can also see almost ritualistic mass suicide JABO attacks by P51's. Why the 51? Because it carries a mess of ORD and it climbs better than a P47 and dives better than a P38. As such, its pretty much unstoppable.

What I'm suggesting is that if your "style of play" is not only prone to dying a lot, but has that designed in, you're just going to have to use a 2nd tier plane to get your kicks or be effective enough to spend 2 or 3 Perks per flight. No plane is "unavailable" ... just that if you insist on throwing away planes eventually the base CO will take away the keys to the good stuff unless you slip him a few perks under the table.


I'm actually looking at a bigger picture here. Take the typical La7 runway vultcher. Because he's so fast he can almost always boom in on a enemy runway (defended or not, makes no difference) and eventually find someone rolling to pounce on. He gets his "thrill" and gives up a death he doesn't care about anyway ... cuz ... well ... he sucks and he knows it.

But -- this player has learned nothing on that last flight. All he did was "lather-rinse-repeat." His skill has not improved and all he really did in terms of the flow of the MA is waste the time of 3 or 4 enemies chasing him down to his evential demise - because the outcome is never in doubt.

If after 3 or 4 consecutive deaths the host said "no more" and forced him to use an La5 or Fw190A to carry out his missions (or pay perks for an La7) that will affect either his style of play (can't die every time) or how automatic his kill is ... unless he decides to learn to freakin' fly a lesser plane.


Same metaphor applies to the Spit16. If a player insists on dieing every time he should be stepped back to a lesser variant, or pay the perks. He can still furball his tiny pea brain out - he just can't out-climb 3/4 of the other planes any more.

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #106 on: December 18, 2005, 12:47:45 PM »
All very true Dok, I just don't see the answer is to perk them.

If that was the answer I'm sure they would have been perked long ago.

Mainly US playerbase therefore the Pony will never get perked.

La7, well theres so little to choose from in the Russian planeset at the moment, may change if enough are added eventually.

LW as a whole - 262 and 163 should be perked, can only imagine the 152 is perked because it is the rarest plane in the game. It's hardly a stellar performer in the low alt MA furballs.

RAF seems to be (call me paranoid) the only major planeset missing a good selection of 44/45 birds, in fact no 45 birds. Those we do have from 44, 2 are perked already (XIV and Temp (Temp should be)), and the XVI (no better performance than a 43 IX).
Give the RAF MORE choices you'll see less XVI's, answer is simple really. Its only because of the 'limited' selection you see a lot of XVI's.
Perk them, youll see more VIII's than you see XVI's now.
Then what, perk them also?
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #107 on: December 18, 2005, 01:11:27 PM »
Well from the USSR planeset we have about the best possible. Just need the YAk-3
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #108 on: December 18, 2005, 01:40:31 PM »
Without hijacking the thread, having lots of LW planes in the game doesn't mean they're as useful as the competition. Modelling, visibility, 20mm effectiveness - where do you want me to start?

Russia needs the Yak-3 and maybe a Pe-2 and then they're fine from a selection standpoint for the MA.

Part of the reason the Spit16 is perk-worthy isn't so much the Spit16 as the relationship of its strengths to what should be its competitors. Flight modelling, visibility, weaponry. So if "the answer" is more choices, then "the solution" is to re-examine the competing planes and make adjustments so that there are more alternatives.

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #109 on: December 18, 2005, 02:08:59 PM »
Dok

The main problem is the MA environment, in WW2 pilots tried to fly their rides to their strengths.
Where else would get into a dogfight with a 30k La7 in a Spit XIV apart from in a game. (Yup it happened and the Lala didn't last long).

For MA low alt furballs the Spit XVI is perfect, thats why it's used a lot. People just haven't realised yet that the VIII is just as capable, but they will. Because if the XVI is perked watch the mass move to the VIII.

So sure go ahead and perk, then the VIII, then we'll be back to our 1942 Spit IX, and AH will have gained another 2 hanger queens.
Neither are surviveable enough in the MA to warrant ANY perk

Spit XIV is the classic example, it barelely manages a K/D better than any other Spit, even at its current reduced cost, it's still not worth it, and this is the Griffon monster that some people think deserves to keep a perk.

So sure go ahead perk every decent performing Spit virtually out of the game, and they'll still find things to whine about the IX.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 02:16:13 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Grits

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« Reply #110 on: December 18, 2005, 02:24:29 PM »
Kev, they wont move to the VIII or any other Spit because of the roll rate, or lack thereof. The reason all of the former La7 losers moved to the XVI is the roll rate, and its roll rate is what puts it on a different level than any other Spit (XIV included).

However...as I have said, if you ask me, perk only the 262, 163, and Temp. I never ASKED for the XVI to be perked, I just said that my guess was that it will be, and that it will be a very light perk something like the C-Hog.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #111 on: December 18, 2005, 02:25:48 PM »
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All the conscerns or disadvantages he lists are not a problem for LF series Spits, especially the Merlin 66 series Spits.


Hey Kev,

My questions about Spitifire engineering was not answered.

Why?  I can see no valid engineering reason why it does not apply, as the report says, to all Spitfire Marks.

Do you know something that the RAE does not?

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #112 on: December 18, 2005, 02:35:58 PM »
Understood Grits about not asking for perk -

La7 deaths are almost exactly the same for the last two tours, so I can't see any mass move from the Lala to the XVI.

There were however 31000+ extra deaths overall last tour prob attributable to both people playing more and new customers.

Crump -
a) There is no data on the V's used in the testing apart from one had a modified balance or something.
b) No mention of aileron type.
c) Yes I am using the V's because ALL the pilot comments are from them flying V's, despite the front page mentioning IX's and XII's.
d) The conclusions maybe valid for F V's, not IMO valid for a LF IX or XVI. The main reasons against clipping wings on an F V are all irrelevant on later LF IX's and XVI's.

In fact it's strange they never used an LF V in the test, it would have been a lot more meaningful.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 02:42:28 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #113 on: December 18, 2005, 02:45:05 PM »
Yeah Crumpp it's all a conspiracy.
Just about every flight simulator has it wrong.

Every allied plane is overmodelled, every axis plane isn't, they should all turn like Zekes, accelerate like F15s, have totally unobstructed views and have guns like lasers.

LW should have the latest boost, rarest planes in game, allies should make do with standard stuff (oops already happens).

There were 4 men on the grassy knoll and Area 51 is not a secret base. (allegedly)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 02:50:51 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #114 on: December 18, 2005, 02:55:48 PM »
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Still like to see whine-o-meter if we had got a XII and F.21


Yeah I would like to see the whine-o-meter if they correctly modeled the FW-190A.

Here is an exerpt from some flight testing of various fighter and bomber variants in 1943...uncorrected speeds:

 


Quote
The conclusions maybe valid for F V's, not IMO valid for a LF IX or XVI. T



Right, In YOUR Opinion.  Which is different from the RAE's conclusion about a British Design.

Quote
Yeah Crumpp it's all a conspiracy.


No conspiracy Kev.  Kind of juvenile and a tactic of last resort to fall back on this old "standbye", huh?

Just a lack of data is all.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 03:00:57 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #115 on: December 18, 2005, 03:00:59 PM »
Was just a bit of sarcasm.

Ok let me put a scenario to you -

Would you take LF IX fit extended wingtips to it and use as a justification why HF VI and VII shouldn't have them?

The report shows a similar scenario.
It mentions F Vb, F IX and XII on the 1st page, yet on the comments from the pilots page it clearly states at the top its only the Vb being flown.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 03:04:21 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #116 on: December 18, 2005, 03:03:42 PM »
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There were however 31000+ extra deaths overall last tour prob attributable to both people playing more and new customers.


I bet HTC would make up any lost revenue from realistically modeling the Spitfire in the increase fun of the fights.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #117 on: December 18, 2005, 03:08:19 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
I bet HTC would make up any lost revenue from realistically modeling the Spitfire in the increase fun of the fights.

All the best,

Crumpp


Put us all in Sopwith Camels you'd still find something to complain about.

It will be a sad sad day when you can't get a free RAF plane later than 42/43. (AGAIN)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 03:16:25 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #118 on: December 18, 2005, 03:25:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Still like to see whine-o-meter if we had got a XII and F.21 :) .


I'd like to remind you that the whine-o-meter only gets crazy by your boasting about how uberscary the XII or the F21 would be. As Crumpp nicely put it, that's a fine opinion, but I very much doubt that any decent 109/190 would be actually that much scared of the nothing extra,poor altitude performance XII, or the 700 lbs heavier, 200 lbs worser climb than it's precedessor XIV plus directionally troubled F21, that on the plus side has.... 1-2mph faster speed and two extra Hispanos, and is plagued by handling problems. I'd take a XIV over that sucker any day. The 109 analogy to the XIV/21 is a 109K with gunpods vs. a clean 109K... at 1.98ata. :D And we don't have to make assumptions about the whine-o-meter in connection with that, we have already seen that from you. :D
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Offline Sketch

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« Reply #119 on: December 18, 2005, 03:31:57 PM »
The Spit 16 is a joke in a sense. Should be perked and not 5-7 perkies, like 15-20... and that is the truth.  It rolls, turns, climbs, dives and speed is matched to or almost too all the top end planes in those categories.  I think it is a crock when you roll into a base that your trying to get a CAP on and they guys up 20 Spit 16's and 20 Lgay-7's.  :O
It is bad when you roll a Pony or Dora and are half way down the runway and a Spit 16 just rolling catches you before your gear is up!  But I guess people need to get easy kills in something, first the Lgay, now the Spit 16.... :noid
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