It's official...

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
I'd like to remind you that the whine-o-meter only gets crazy by your boasting about how uberscary the XII or the F21 would be. As Crumpp nicely put it, that's a fine opinion, but I very much doubt that any decent 109/190 would be actually that much scared of the nothing extra,poor altitude performance XII, or the 700 lbs heavier, 200 lbs worser climb than it's precedessor XIV plus directionally troubled F21, that on the plus side has.... 1-2mph faster speed and two extra Hispanos, and is plagued by handling problems. I'd take a XIV over that sucker any day. The 109 analogy to the XIV/21 is a 109K with gunpods vs. a clean 109K... at 1.98ata. And we don't have to make assumptions about the whine-o-meter in connection with that, we have already seen that from you.

Here we go -
Poor alt performance XII - Well the XII was a low alt Spit (shows how much you know).

F.21 - Problems were resolved but did delay introduction into service until 45. Plus side - 455mph at 25,600ft , as for 4x20mms, see the uproar when it was suggested the V should get 4x20mms.
Guarentee if a free F.21 was ever introduced into AH2 it would make the XVI perk discussion or ANY other look timid, it would also make the free F4U-C situation look like a storm in a teacup.
If you actually played in the MA or AH2 for that matter you'd realise why we wont ever get an F.21 free or otherwise.

Not even going into the 1.98ata thing again, the day you show one record of one being converted I'll believe you. Until then its wishful thinking.
Bit like the "109K had operational flettners, look I found a photograph", until Butch pointed out to you NO actuator arm was fitted.

[Urchin]

I think it is great that the RAF fans finally got a 1944 Spit to fly around in.  The only spit 9 really wasn't competitive (which was obvious, seeing as the old spit 5 got more use).  

As for as the LW planes go, they've pretty much always sucked, assuming you wanted to knife-fight in them.  I haven't played in a while, but the 190 was pretty much a "make 1,2 moves then run if you haven't killed em" type plane.  No comment on the 109, since I haven't flown the new ones.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Urchin
I think it is great that the RAF fans finally got a 1944 Spit to fly around in.  The only spit 9 really wasn't competitive (which was obvious, seeing as the old spit 5 got more use).  
 

Exactly.
Finally after a long long time waiting a free 1944 spit. (even if at 1943 performance levels)

Kurfy - At least with Crumpp it's possible to have a civil, if sometimes heated discussion, maybe a little humor and sarcasm also.
With you it always ends up with you resorting to personal insults, think from now on your IGGIED.

[Crumpp]

It will be a sad sad day when you can't get a free RAF plane later than 42/43. (AGAIN)

Stop being self pitying.

Facts are there should be no need to perk the Spitfire Mk XVI.  Just correct the cherry picked data more online to what Supermarine says it should be.

Fix the altitude performance some and it will still be a very competative aircraft.  In AH fights rarely occur above 22,000 feet anyway.  

In fact if I were HTC I would model 100/150 grade performance for Late '44/early 45.  The Spitfire Mk XVI would need it to stay competative with the Dora's and Bf-109K's.

The roll rate is not that the clipped wing spits are overmodeled, it is that the FW-190 is based off of RAE 1231.  That report represents at the very least, the bottom end of FW-190 roll performance.

It mentions F Vb, F IX and XII on the 1st page, yet on the comments from the pilots page it clearly states at the top its only the Vb being flown.

Roll performance is tied to wing design and ailerion design.  As the Spitfire Marks do not change wing design, they will all have similar roll performance.  Just as the FW-190's do up until the Ta-152 when the wing was changed.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Kev367th]

I understand Crummp I think your missing my point.

i) You have to agree all the pilots comments state it improved roll rate.

ii) The V's being tested - makes no mention of aileron type (metal or fabric).

iii) For an LF plane most of the conclusions are immaterial.
a) Less speed at alt - But more at low alts, where LF's were designed for
b) Lowering of ceiling - Problem for an LF, I don't think so.
c) Increased take off run - 1943/44 not a problem
d) CV ops - Seafire did fly clipped form CV's without a problem
e) Turn radius - They still turned inside their opponents.
f) Lowering of max climb by 160-200fpm

In the context of the report i.e. clipped F Vb's, 3 of them would be undesirable (a) (b) (f).
For the more powerfull LF Merlin 66 none would be a problem.

Trying to use early F series Spits to say clipped wings were not recommended on late LF's with Merlin 66 doesn't add up.

Theres one thing that should throw up a big red flag - The XII's were still ALL clipped wing, despite it.

I could be missing something tho?

[Kweassa]

As for as the LW planes go, they've pretty much always sucked, assuming you wanted to knife-fight in them. I haven't played in a while, but the 190 was pretty much a "make 1,2 moves then run if you haven't killed em" type plane. No comment on the 109, since I haven't flown the new ones.

 Word!

 As a guy who flies LW stuff, it doesn't matter if they are La-7s or Spit16s. They all pretty much the same thing with simular tactics required to beat or survive from. But the good thing is these Spit16s are much slower than the La-7 so personally I find it actually easier to fight.

 In other words, for people who don't give a shi* about uber planes and flies just what they like, fighting against a mix of La-7s and Spit5('42)s is much more difficult than just facing a horde of Spit16s - since all of them are the same, all of them fly the same.

 The irony is that individually, all those wishy washy folk who always flock to the best MA planes, might think being in a Spit16 will give them better results... except the only kind of result such mindless folk can ever expect to get is always by becoming a part of a large flock horde - the irony being that everybody in Spit16s make the flock weaker, not stronger.


 Besides, I fly uber planes myself - 109K-4s, Fw190D-9s. Every where I see I people complaining about Spit16s and yet, all those noisy folk are themselves flying with plane that go 380mph at deck, climb 4500fpm, roll 180d/s, accelerate from 0 to 300 in 10 seconds, make loops and verticals forever.. etc etc.. Obviously we all enjoy flying all these '44~'45 planes. It's not like the Spit16 is a uber multi-purpose plane like the Chog.



 I say unperk the Spit14 too.

 As long as people aren't willing to perk the entire section of late-war planes, any perk suggestions that would perk only certain late war planes and leave all their favorite '44~'45 planes alone is pure hypocrisy - no excuses allowed. It's either perk all '44~'45 stuff or none. Anything else is bullsh**

 I say leave the Spit16 alone, and unperk the Chog, 4hog, Ta, Spit14.. and drop the Temp, 262 perk price to half.

 Either that, or if people want to perk Spit16s, then they'd better be ready to accept to perk all '44 planes along with it. 190A-8, D-9, 109G-14, K-4, P-51s, P-47s, P-38s, Typhoons, Temps, La-7s, and the post '43 Spits..  etc etc.

[Squire]

"Blue Skies", I will have to get that one, rgr.

Santa may owe me a rebate yet.

[Kev367th]

Kweassa - You make far too much sense, go out and have some beers

[1K3]

Originally posted by Kweassa
I say leave the Spit16 alone, and unperk the Chog, 4hog, Ta, Spit14.. and drop the Temp, 262 perk price to half.

 Either that, or if people want to perk Spit16s, then they'd better be ready to accept to perk all '44 planes along with it. 190A-8, D-9, 109G-14, K-4, P-51s, P-47s, P-38s, Typhoons, Temps, La-7s, and the post '43 Spits..  etc etc.

hehe i already said the same thing years ago:p

perk a '44 plane then might as well perk all 1944-45 planes.

[Squire]

They will never, ever, widely perk the 44-45 set, as most of the AH customers don't want that.

MA = the 44-45 Arena.

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Yeah Crumpp it's all a conspiracy.
Just about every flight simulator has it wrong.

Every allied plane is overmodelled, every axis plane isn't, they should all turn like Zekes, accelerate like F15s, have totally unobstructed views and have guns like lasers.

...

Kev, I agree that the Spit9 wasn't all that much of a ride. Which is why you saw a lot of folks in the Spit5. I have no problem with the Spit16 *except* that it highlights an imbalance that does exist.

Lets ignore flight modelling for the moment. Lets just look at two things - visibility and weaponry. No RAF plane has worse forward visibility than the 109's. No Spitfire has worse forward visibility than the 190's. There have been plenty of threads in these forums about this - yet the disparity remains. As for weaponry, a Spit should never want to HO a Fw190, but in AH the Spit has the edge due to the way the 20mm's are modelled.

No one is asking for the LW planes to do anything unrealistic - it'd just be nice if they did what they're supposed to so that there WERE more viable plane choices.

[Kev367th]

Visibility- Everything I've read says the Spit had better visibilty.

Guns - If it were a live pilot in a real Spit, no you wouldn't, however its not. As yet another example - how many times you been in something like a 110 with the complete gun package and something like a A6M will try and ho you.
How many guys gets kills in IL2's because people try to ho them.
Hispanos - Only real complaints I ever read about conscerned the early ones that were prone to jamming, but HT doesn't model any kind of failure.

You can't compare real life anything to AH2.
Things happen on a regualr basis in AH2 that would probably be one in a million 'real life', because we only have our virtual life on the line.

[Crumpp]

The V's being tested - makes no mention of aileron type (metal or fabric).

They have metal ailerons.  The report is from March 1943.  All Spitfire Mk V's were supposed to be delivered with metal ailerons.  However there were delays for the first 7 months of production and some normal wing Spitfire Mk V's did not get fitted with them.  By March 1943 all Spitfire Mk V's had them, especially the newer clipped wing.

Turn radius - They still turned inside their opponents.

No.  They turned inside the FW-190.  The trials determined the Clipped Wing Spitfire was no match for the Bf-109G6.  The trials were conducted without 600lbs of armament for the Spitfire.

It makes perfect sense for the Spitfire Mk XII's to be clipped wing.  There main purpose was attempting to stop the low level bombing raids being conducted by the FW-190G/F of SKG 10.

As you can see from the graph I posted, with empty racks and no ordinance, some of those bombenflugzeugen FW-190's were much faster than a regular Spitfire on the deck.   You can figure the fast one was doing about 595kph TAS on the deck with the average one doing 580kph TAS.  The RAF needed something to answer the problem so they developed the Spitfire Mk XII.

The clipped wing increases the Spitfire's chances against an FW-190.  The trade off is that they become highly vunerable to the 109 especially in the turn.

All the best,

Crumpp

[justin_g]

Just correct the cherry picked data more online to what Supermarine says it should be.

So I guess Pyro is the cherry-picker here? Or did I miss the thread where he got all the FM data from the community?

[Crumpp]

Or did I miss the thread where he got all the FM data from the community?

No the community is the one cherry picking data.  Pyro just models what he is given and thinks is the best for the game.  

Actual aircraft performance is not exact.  It falls within a range and manufacturers will pick the average performance.  They will then guarentee to the end user that all manufacturered aircraft will meet that performance within the specified range.

So it is very east to find "exceptional" aircraft.  While they are flight tested data, they do not represent the typical performance.

It is also very easy to compare these exceptional aircraft to normal aircraft or even the "lemons" to produce a skewed picture of relative performance.

All of those FW-190's are frontline aircraft pulled from Geschwaders for endurance/quality control testing.  They have armament, normal finish, and are set up for combat duty.  Some of them are exceptional performers while others are lemons.

All the best,

Crumpp