AntiVulch Code

[hubsonfire]

See edit in prior post. I don't know that you fully comprehended my concerns, and I want to make sure we're on the same page in that regard.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by hubsonfire

To clarify my concerns regarding this proposed change to gameplay:
The easiest way to land a sortie of more than 5 kills, for the vast majority of players, is to vulch. The second easiest is pure cherrypicking in a many-vs-few engagement. Both yield the same results, and provide the same padding effect insofar as scoring/ranking is concerned. When you eliminate the easiest method, the second easiest method becomes the path of least resistance. That's my concern; that instead of these clowns being consumed with vulching, they'll be overwhelming any fights that have developed whereever the vulchers have been overrun.

The difference is the guy vulching is at ZERO risk and the guy getting vulched has ZERO chance. If the vulchers all became cherry pickers on all teams, well that would be interesting. Because, you would now have a bunch of guys who were up until this point vulchers having to fight other cherry pickers who were previously doing the same thing (vulchers would be forced to fight other vulchers). It would actually make life easier for the guys on the bottom of the furball dogpile as the cherry picking altitudes would suddenly be very crowded, they would have to get rid of guys at or near their altitude first before they could relatively safely cherry pick the TnB furballers down low. My guess is the majority of the vulchers turned cherry pickers would end up cancelling each other out, so between the furballers that are now not getting cherried as much and the base defenders not getting vulched, you have much better, more frequent and persistant FURBALLS.

While purely cherry picking is low-risk there is a chance he can die either to another cherry picker or by blowing his E and getting into a compromising situation. If ack is down and VH is down a vulcher has ZERO risk. In gameplay terms getting rewarded for doing soemthing that is zero risk is a very, very severe balance issue.

Zazen

[hubsonfire]

Hmmm, interesting. I hadn't given much thought to that particular aspect. While I'm not sure that is indeed what would happen, it would be rather entertaining to see a "race to space" as the various pickers began fighting for the apex perch at the highest alt, and having to either avoid or kill all of those like-minded folks. However, I fear a great many would just nose-down and go screaming through the lower alt fights to get a scrap or 2 before someone came down and bagged them.

However, I still have concerns at the fields being worked over. The possibility that the lack of vulching could cause wave after wave of medium alt bomber formations can't be ignored, and we still don't know what would happen with guys who've only ever vulched. They'd get in where they fit in, and that would likely be small groups hovering at each end of the field, waiting for someone's wheels to clear the tarmac. The specifics may change, but I fear the principle will still be, as you put it, 0 risk vs 0 chance.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
Hmmm, interesting. I hadn't given much thought to that particular aspect. While I'm not sure that is indeed what would happen, it would be rather entertaining to see a "race to space" as the various pickers began fighting for the apex perch at the highest alt, and having to either avoid or kill all of those like-minded folks. However, I fear a great many would just nose-down and go screaming through the lower alt fights to get a scrap or 2 before someone came down and bagged them.

However, I still have concerns at the fields being worked over. The possibility that the lack of vulching could cause wave after wave of medium alt bomber formations can't be ignored, and we still don't know what would happen with guys who've only ever vulched. They'd get in where they fit in, and that would likely be small groups hovering at each end of the field, waiting for someone's wheels to clear the tarmac. The specifics may change, but I fear the principle will still be, as you put it, 0 risk vs 0 chance.

That's exactly right, in AW we called it the altitude arms race. Just know that the higher the cherry pickers chase each other the safer the furballers are from being disturbed down low. If the cherry picker did elect to dive down low to get away from the other cherry pickers, well he just blew all of his E, he's now in furball land with no 'Big Stick' to club 'em with, unless he's good, he's as good as dead.

This is not a solution to the bombers, nothing can stop a bomber but a fighter at the bomber's altitude. As it is now any bomber coming to a field is rarely attacked if 15k+.

Watch guys who up at fields that are partially CAP'd, they don't extend away from the field laterally they climb and extend vertically. Whether they are engaged or not they at least now have a fighting chance. If there's enough defenders, anything close to a 1 to 1 ratio there will be an interesting fight. As it stands now, 5 vulchers who took ack and VH down can keep 10 defenders from mounting a defense by shooting them as they spawn or taxi, that's a messed up gameplay balance issue that prevents alot of what would otherwise be fun fights, my solution would help fix this.

Zazen

[hubsonfire]

It may temporarily cure pure-vulching, but I still have concerns on the effects of such a change, and the trickledown effects, and consequent changes in tactics and gameplay.

Anyhow, I'm off to hunt down vulchers.

[CAV]

Why would furballers not help CAP a base? They would have more targets as there would be more people wanting to defend and there would actually be a furball not just a runway vulching session where you wait in line for your turn to make a pass on the one guy crazy enough to try to up.

You have to think like a capture guy...

They hate to see the bad guys flying, it gets in the way of the capture. But they need a useable airfield once they capture it. So they vulch anything taking off. And no goon driver likes going any place near a furball. So they are going to kill the base... no one upping from it. Killing the furball... and we will be back to... the furballers mad at the capture guy for killing the furball and the capture guys mad at the furballers for not helping take the base.  

CAVALRY

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
It may temporarily cure pure-vulching, but I still have concerns on the effects of such a change, and the trickledown effects, and consequent changes in tactics and gameplay.

Anyhow, I'm off to hunt down vulchers.

I've thought about that, I made a small list of conceivable gameplay ramifications, direct and indirect:

a) Less pure vulching.
b) More base defense fighters (typically turnfighters)
c) Less milkrunning
d) More cherry pickers that used to be vulchers
e) More furballers that used to be defenders
f) Less low-alt buffing/strafing
g) Less dive-bombing heavy's
h) More fights between fields
i) Less fights directly over fields
j) More people and co-ordination required to take fields
k) More fights around periphery fields when milkruns fail
l) People who used to only defend with AA will now tend to defend with planes. Making for larger fights (furballs)

That's all I have so far, feel free to add to the list.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by CAV
You have to think like a capture guy...

They hate to see the bad guys flying, it gets in the way of the capture. But they need a useable airfield once they capture it. So they vulch anything taking off. And no goon driver likes going any place near a furball. So they are going to kill the base... no one upping from it. Killing the furball... and we will be back to... the furballers mad at the capture guy for killing the furball and the capture guys mad at the furballers for not helping take the base.  

CAVALRY

I don't necessarily think that will be the case. First of all there will be defenders to stop them. Secondly, if the capture guys have to kill bases to capture them they are going to pay a price in making that base very vulnerable to recapture and making it useless for at least 15 minutes to continue a steamroll of captures. As it is now all you have to do to take a base is take down town, ack and VH and have a few guys vulching planes as they spawn, leaving the base entirely intact and a perfect launching pad for continuing the milkrun steamroll. There's not alot of time to mount a counter-attack from a nearby field for the defenders. But, if the attackers were forced to invest the time and personell to drop a base, well that gives the defenders a chance to mount a counter-attack in force before the attackers can consumate the capture.

Also, you will still have CAP fighters, they will still get mad if you drop FHs. They will just not be directly over the field at 2k making runs up and down the runways.

Zazen

[CAV]

I see and understand your points. Your system will  improve gameplay...

For the "Furballers". But what are the the Base Capture guys getting from this beside a lot harder target to capture. Those guys pay to play AH too. What is the improvements for them?

The one thing I have seen, After 10 years of AW, WB, FA & AH, the Base capture players are always coming up with new ways to get around "gameplay improvements". Many times the Fix was worst than what we had brfore.

CAVALRY

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by CAV
I see and understand your points. Your system will  improve gameplay...

For the "Furballers". But what are the the Base Capture guys getting from this beside a lot harder target to capture. Those guys pay to play AH too. What is the improvements for them?

The one thing I have seen, After 10 years of AW, WB, FA & AH, the Base capture players are always coming up with new ways to get around "gameplay improvements". Many times the Fix was worst than what we had brfore.

CAVALRY

The base capture guys will actually have to co-ordinate and work together efficiently in the face of defenders. This will be alot more fun and interesting than simply upping a few 110s, strafing down town, ack and VH then vulching any brave souls as they spawn planes until the goon arrives. There will actually be more emphasis on skilled capturers because..well..it will take more of them and they will require more skill to successfully effect a base capture.

The laws of economics dictate that the more of a resource required relative to its supply the more valuable that resource becomes. As it is now base capture guys are the 'ugly red-headed step-children' of AH. Make their jobs require more skill, co-ordination and personnel and suddenly people respect them and become anxious to aid them in their far more engaging task.

This change is designed to improve gameplay, not necessarily make the game easier for any one sub-set of the community. Defenders will still have a steep up-hill battle as you would logically expect, it just won't be the virtually  insurmountable sheer rock cliff it is now.


Zazen

[CAV]

The base capture guys will actually have to co-ordinate and work together efficiently in the face of defenders. This will be alot more fun and interesting than simply upping a few 110s, strafing down town, ack and VH then vulching any brave souls as they spawn planes until the goon arrives. There will actually be more emphasis on skilled capturers because..well..it will take more of them and they will require more skill to successfully effect a base capture.     The laws of economics dictate that the more of a resource required relative to its supply to more valuable that resource becomes. As it is now base capture guys are the 'ugly red-headed step-children' of AH. Make their jobs require more skill, co-ordination and personell and suddenly people respect them and become anxious to aid them in their task.    Zazen

OK... I am all for it.

Even if only the see the faces of the "I am a Dogfighter/Furballer only" types as the map still get moved by even larger... But now well coordinate attacks by the "step children of AH".

CAVALRY

Every time a base gets capture...(and a pointless furball dies) an angel gets his wings...

By-the-way... I don't have red hair...

[Murdr]

When I first browsed this thread it reminded me of McCains anti-torture bill.  In that no matter how erronious or how many unintend consequences there are, nobody would have the gonads to be against it because of how it would make them look.  Then I thought of another parallel.  Its a solution looking for a problem.

There are funny little truisms of bad luck in AH that are universal to those who spend most of thier time in fighters.  Things like perk planes and puffy ack and disconnects,  pilot wounds and final approaches, CV coarse changes and final approaches.

One that comes to mind relevent to this topic is the old head to the long green bar in a heavy fighter to arrive at the targed with a long red bar and no green to be found.  It happens so often I expect it to be so.  I see solid caps broken just about every login.

As the self proclaimed anti-vulch king, I would not be surprised vulching would be front and center of your AH world view.  Your stats clearly indicate that to be the case.  Now I will vulch at the drop of a hat if given the opportunity.  The key word being opportunity.  Its not like running down to the corner store and buying a vulch.  Its more like running down to the corner store with only 1 dollar each time, and buying a scratch off lottery ticket.  You might walk out with money in your pocket, but odds are you wont.

On most maps I have no trouble finding fights.  On most maps there are hot spots where you can count on good fights for hours on end within a couple sector area.  Within that couple sector area, the battle ebbs and flows from furball in the middle to one field being capped to the other field being capped.  If there was a problem, it wouldnt be that way nearly every time I log in.

Granted, on the same maps there are steamroll areas too.  Much of the time, in my experience, the steamroll goes on practically unopposed.  For some reason you see that as a problem with the attackers.  Its not like they have to overcome things like 5-10 minutes replacement time if they go down.  Or limited loiter time with the 2.0 fuel burn rate.  Or the 10-15 minute turn around time when going bingo.  Or bringing troops from 100 or more miles away because of the small dedicated troop porking squad.  Then there is the inconvience of manned ack and VH poping up every 15 minutes.  And of course the obligatory death of the first goon that took 20 minutes to get there by the odd il2, la, or hurri that somehow slips out of the cap.  Its so easy in every situation for the attacker.  Its so unfair.  We must take away the little perk to helping support such a uber proposition.  We must piss on what enjoyment others get out of the game for various unscrupulous reasons because "I" dont approve of it.  "I" pay my $14.95 and "I" have a right to piss on other peoples game play when "I" dont agree with it.

I dont play for rank, or stats (at least not any AH scores directly).  I play for fun.  And now that I think about it, ya know what?  Vulching is fun.  Is it challenging?  Well that depends....How many friendlies do I have to race to get it first?  There are so many answers to breaking cap, if...the defenders have the collective will to do it.  I still say you have a solution looking for a problem just because you dont approve of how others play.

[CAV]

Vulching is fun.

And somewhat of a Flight sim tradition....


CAVALRY

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by Murdr
I dont play for rank, or stats (at least not any AH scores directly).  I play for fun.  And now that I think about it, ya know what?  Vulching is fun.  Is it challenging?  Well that depends....How many friendlies do I have to race to get it first?  

1. So continue to vulch under the proposed idea. Its still an efective method. The proposed idea would also creat new challenges. Like learning how to kill an airborne plane lets say.

Originally posted by Murdr
There are so many answers to breaking cap, if...the defenders have the collective will to do it.  I still say you have a solution looking for a problem just because you dont approve of how others play.

2.Collectivity is a matter of percentages. More players online = increased collective effort. Its a law of averages. In the case where a particular country out numbers another by say..30 players. The outnumbered country/countries would be more effective in the defensive role with Zazens idea, not having to rely on breaking the law of averages.
regards

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by CAV
And somewhat of a Flight sim tradition....


CAVALRY

This is not the end to vulching, it's an end to being rewarded for vulching...


Zazen