AntiVulch Code

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Murdr

I dont play for rank, or stats (at least not any AH scores directly).  I play for fun.  And now that I think about it, ya know what?  Vulching is fun.  Is it challenging?  Well that depends....How many friendlies do I have to race to get it first?  There are so many answers to breaking cap, if...the defenders have the collective will to do it.  I still say you have a solution looking for a problem just because you dont approve of how others play.

You can still have fun vulching, you just won't get any score, perks or your name in lights for it. But, if you don't care about any of that, it won't really affect you at all, you can still have a happy time vulching.

Zazen

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Mugzeee
The proposed idea would also creat new challenges. Like learning how to kill an airborne plane lets say.

 Did I hear him right? What did he just say to me?
 

2.Collectivity is a matter of percentages. More players online = increased collective effort. Its a law of averages. In the case where a particular country out numbers another by say..30 players. The outnumbered country/countries would be more effective in the defensive role with Zazens idea, not having to rely on breaking the law of averages.
regards [/B]

Take a couple buddies, up at another field, come in high and dispurse the loiters a little, some defenders may manage to get up.  Happens all the time.  Its not that complex.  It doesnt take changing the way things have always been to do it.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Mugzeee

2.Collectivity is a matter of percentages. More players online = increased collective effort. Its a law of averages. In the case where a particular country out numbers another by say..30 players. The outnumbered country/countries would be more effective in the defensive role with Zazens idea, not having to rely on breaking the law of averages.
regards

That's exactly right Mugz. It would be possible to slow a steamroll even with an overall numeric disadvantage. As it is now, numbers are everything. Once a base is Tight CAP'd the only recourse for the defenders is to try to relieve the be-sieged field from an adjacent one.

Ufortuantely, especially on the HUGE maps, there is almost never enough time to do so before it is captured. Under the current system, even a smaller attacking force can keep a larger, would be defensive force, from getting airborne because it is too easy to kill spawning or taxiing planes, they appear at pre-determined places and are stationary or moving slowly. By not rewarding their destruction you dramatically decrease the number of people willing to waste ammo to shoot them in that compromising position thereby enhancing the chance the defenders can mount a vigorous defense.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Zazen13
I've thought about that, I made a small list of conceivable gameplay ramifications, direct and indirect:

h) More fights between fields
i) Less fights directly over fields


That's all I have so far, feel free to add to the list.

Zazen

Sorry for quoting myself but I have a small point to make about this particular side-effect. Read between the lines and imagine a map like Trinity, Equinox or Frac. What this really means is less flight times to fights for everyone. No more flying 20 minutes to a fight that's over before you get there because the base is vulched. Instead you'll have a 10 minute flight to a fight that will definately still be there when you arrive. This translates into more action, more often, with less wasted flight time, both to and from the fights for everyone.

Zazen

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Zazen13
You can still have fun vulching, you just won't get any score, perks or your name in lights for it. But, if you don't care about any of that, it won't really affect you at all, you can still have a happy time vulching.

Zazen

Sure, approach end, departure end of runway, dont matter to me where.  Either way they are dead.  So what did we accomplish?  Zazens pettyness over how others may or may not be rewarded has been addressed.  Whohoo, where do i sign the petition?

Originally posted by Zazen13
What is this morbid fascination and pre-occupation with what others will or won't do when, if, how, you want them to.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Murdr
Sure, approach end, departure end of runway, dont matter to me where.  Either way they are dead.  So what did we accomplish?  Zazens pettyness over how others may or may not be rewarded has been addressed.  Whohoo, where do i sign the petition?

Against one guy you may be able to camp the end of the runway just as easily as the spawn point, but against multiple defenders upping simulataneously you will not be so successful at doing so if they get the chance to get airborne. The point is not what people are doing, the point is to improve the game so it's more fun overall for everyone, more fighting and less milkrunning.

Zazen

[Saxman]

If I may repeat a point made and lost somewhere up above, (I'm sorry, Zazen, but It's hard to follow the thread with 5+ posts in a row each responding to individual posts one at a time) it appears that your aim is to improve things for the FURBALLERS--both those cranky over getting vulched, and those cranky because a tight cap or dropping the fh's kills the furball. The problem as has been pointed out, is that it's potentially at the expense of the CAPTURE GUYS. No matter HOW you phrase it, it's like you're wanting to take away what THEY find fun because it interferes with your idea.

It's also an important point that the game environment is ALWAYS moving. Even if one field IS capped and captured, the attackers are going to HAVE to move on to the next field eventually, anyway. There's ALWAYS a furball SOMEWHERE waiting to happen. Did the capture guys bust up a furball by capping the field and downing the FHs? So frelling what? Move on to the NEXT field and furball while the mop up work is being done and the capture completed. And the horde of furballers should at LEAST be proud of the fact that the reason a field CAN be capped and FHs dropped (most captures I've been on actually prefer to leave the fh's intact so the base can be launched from right away) is frequently because they were so darned effective at dropping the defenders.

You want to make it harder to capture so that the capture guys have to coordinate and plan their attacks. I realize I'm just a newbie around here, but I've TRIED to organize and coordinate, and with some exceptions all ANYONE wants to do is furball just for the sake of furballing. Put together a mission yesterday, and got maybe 7 guys to up with me, about a THIRD, if that, of what I set the mission to call for. Not surprisingly, while it held together decently for my first mission, it failed. Largely I think because our target wasn't the big furball itself over a field we'd been spending 3 days trying to capture so that's where everyone ELSE wanted to be instead. Rather, we were trying to be smart and swing around to the unmolested base SUPPORTING the meatgrinder, and effectively take our main objective from behind.

While people frown on it, vulchers and cherry pickers provide a valuable service to the capture guys: They keep the enemy out of the air where they can't harrass buffs, jabbos, goons, M3s, LVTs, etc etc etc. Even the "career" guys are useful in that regard. While there are some guys who'll vulch regardless, trying to discourage it is only going to hurt the capture guys if the vulchers go away.

Now, I'm a pretty much a dedicated fighter pilot in here. I don't do well in attack/bombing runs, (the argument could be made I don't do well in air-to-air, either, but that's beside the point) so RARELY carry eggs or rockets. But that doesn't mean I'm just thinking of what's in the air around me. I want to know if we've got real mud-movers coming in, or troops standing by. The status of the town and if it's READY for troops. If the field is de-acked, or capped, or fh's down so we can get those troops in relatively unmolested. If the town needs to be dropped, the cap is nice and tight, and it's green as far as the eye can see, you can bet I'll roll in and play wrecking ball with the Jabos, because when I'm up on a capture mission that's my JOB: Kill the guys in the air, kill the uppers, kill the gvs, kill the town. Furball, vulch, cherrypick, whatever it takes to contribute to the capture per the capabilities of my ride

Maybe that's a bit alien thinking for the furballers, but it's REAL frustrating trying to do my bit, or get guys TOGETHER to do it, when all anyone cares about is the furball.

And you want to make it HARDER for the capture guys?

[Tilt]

If the airfield is the object of capture then suppression of its defence will from part of the attacking strategm..............

Hence whether stuff is vulched wheels down or wheels just off it will be the same.

One of the objectives of the attack will be to deny defenders the oppurtunity of combat in that area.

To achieve quicker access to combat you must put the fields closer...this raises a host of other gameplay problems...............

The other method is to move the object of capture away from the airfield........... place them between airfields not at them.

There are avariety of options once land grab is no longer due to airfield capture. (Vfield capture, City capture, logistic route denial etc etc)

But just one of the benefits is that two (or even three) airfields can be equidistant from the object of capture (ie the point of attack/defence)  This point is between airfields but with apropriate travel time from airfield to combat.

As such mass suppression will be difficult to achieve splitting the attackers forces in to two or even three groups.

Access to combat will be more possible for the defender but timing will be of the essense to avoid capture by the enemy.

Surprise attacks could be more effective but once the element of surprise is removed then defence is more plausable.

Numbers will still count.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Saxman
If I may repeat a point made and lost somewhere up above, (I'm sorry, Zazen, but It's hard to follow the thread with 5+ posts in a row each responding to individual posts one at a time) it appears that your aim is to improve things for the FURBALLERS--both those cranky over getting vulched, and those cranky because a tight cap or dropping the fh's kills the furball. The problem as has been pointed out, is that it's potentially at the expense of the CAPTURE GUYS. No matter HOW you phrase it, it's like you're wanting to take away what THEY find fun because it interferes with your idea.

 

I'm not quite sure how making vulches not count toward score interferes with base capture guys having fun doing what they like to do? They can still capture fields, they can still vulch if need be, they just won't get rewarded for 'pure' vulching. Seems to me if you are just after accumulating fields it really wouldn't make alot of difference other than there might be a little more actual fighting involved, is that a bad thing?

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Tilt
If the airfield is the object of capture then suppression of its defence will from part of the attacking strategm..............

Hence whether stuff is vulched wheels down or wheels just off it will be the same.

Actually it's not the same at all. Wheels down the defender has ZERO chance for success, airborne with some E he has at least some chance of success.

This isn't an end to vulching or base capturing. This would be an end to base defense being an almost total exercise in futility. It would give people who wish to vulch to augment their score, perk account and ego an incentive to be at least a smidgeon sportsmanlike about it.


Zazen

[Iceman24]

how about this idea...  DON'T UP A VULCHED BASE... if you do, your either stupid and deserve to be killed, or balsy and deserve to be equally killed....I can swing this argument around and say that if I bust a GV's track or turret they shouldn't be able to land. Or tower out before a bomb hits them.... Best thing you can do at a capped base is to up GV's not planes, heck spawn em in if you have to... If the same guy wants to up over and over again and let me take target practice at him its his stupid fault not mine for shooting at him.... I don't here anyone griping about the guys that spawn camp GV's with tigers and land 80 freakin killz. Or the guy that drives an m8 into an enemy's FH and shoots fighters b4 they can even start rolling, so this argument is useless... Maybe the best scenario would be to ad a 2nd VH to medium and large bases ? I currently think the way it is, is fine. Some maps favor buff pilots more, some maps furballers and gv's, some maps for base takers...... Bottom line is that if your whining about getting vulched, up a gv or up a base back and come in with alt and bust up the attack, don't try and mess up someone elses good time just because you don't like to use common sense...

[Saxman]

The point I was trying to make, Zazen, is that some people vulch because there's a stats reward for doing it. Removed that reward, and some people won't want to vulch anymore. As annoying as full-time vulchers are (equally annoying, I'd say, as full-time furballers ) those guys can actually be useful to base captures.

Anyway, as has been stated repeatedly, there's ALREADY a solution to being vulched built right into the game: Up somewhere else and come in high. There's no need to manufacture one.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Iceman24
how about this idea...  DON'T UP A VULCHED BASE... if you do, your either stupid and deserve to be killed, or balsy and deserve to be equally killed....I can swing this argument around and say that if I bust a GV's track or turret they shouldn't be able to land. Or tower out before a bomb hits them.... Best thing you can do at a capped base is to up GV's not planes, heck spawn em in if you have to... If the same guy wants to up over and over again and let me take target practice at him its his stupid fault not mine for shooting at him.... I don't here anyone griping about the guys that spawn camp GV's with tigers and land 80 freakin killz. Or the guy that drives an m8 into an enemy's FH and shoots fighters b4 they can even start rolling, so this argument is useless... Maybe the best scenario would be to ad a 2nd VH to medium and large bases ? I currently think the way it is, is fine. Some maps favor buff pilots more, some maps furballers and gv's, some maps for base takers...... Bottom line is that if your whining about getting vulched, up a gv or up a base back and come in with alt and bust up the attack, don't try and mess up someone elses good time just because you don't like to use common sense...

Again, why would not getting points, perks or recognition for vulching interfere with your fun? Is vulching only fun for you strictly BECAUSE you get score, perks and recognition?

We agree that under the current system, attempting to directly defend a field under attack with fighters is tantamount to insanity. That is the whole point here, gameplay would improve if it were not tantamount to insanity but instead just really, really danagerous.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Saxman
The point I was trying to make, Zazen, is that some people vulch because there's a stats reward for doing it. Removed that reward, and some people won't want to vulch anymore. As annoying as full-time vulchers are (equally annoying, I'd say, as full-time furballers ) those guys can actually be useful to base captures.

Anyway, as has been stated repeatedly, there's ALREADY a solution to being vulched built right into the game: Up somewhere else and come in high. There's no need to manufacture one.

They may not 'pure' vulch anymore that is true. What they will do instead is establish medium CAP and engage fighters after they've become airborne. In air combat terms we call that a fight. The defenders are still at a severe disadvantage, but they are at least given the opportunity to directly fight for their base. The vulchers will just have to have a bit more skill to kill a plane that is airborne rather than stationary on the take-off spot or taxiing slowly down the runway. I don't really see how that would directly interfere with base capturers enjoying themselves, if anything I would think that would make their task far more interesting and alot less akin to playing offline.

While upping somewhere else and coming in high sounds good in theory, it doesn't work very well in reality. The problem is it takes too long and it's almost impossible to get sufficient numbers on location simultaneously to disrupt the capture, more often than not captures are so easy they are effected before any significant help can arrive from a proximate field. This is especially true on HUGE maps where the typical distance between fields is greatest and for fields under CV attack where time to target for the attackers is much shorter than for defenders from an adjacent field.


Zazen

[Lan784]

I can sum up this thread.....TAKE OFF FROM A DIFFERNET FIELD U BUNCH OF LAZY SLACKERS!!!If u dont like gettin vulched BOO HOO, take off from another field stupids.