Author Topic: and the war on the poor is stepped up a notch (Read 1529 times)

capt. apathy · « **Reply #30 on:** December 22, 2005, 06:18:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
promote the general welfare has nothing to do with extorting money from one citizen to give to another or to running a helth care industry.

You simply want someone else to pay for stuff you can't or won't afford.

Why should you even get $5 or $7 an hour when there are people who are homeless.... maybe you should be paying more for them? Once you have brought those poor wretches up to your level then we will talk about what you need.

see? It is only good to have "free" stuff and help poor people when you are the benificiary... you don't really want anything but to make other people pay for what you won't work for.

lazs

my possition hasn't changed from when I could afford health care to now that I can't.

when I had no problem covering everything my family needed I still saw no need for anyone in this country to go without basic healthcare.

RedTop · « **Reply #31 on:** December 22, 2005, 06:26:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by capt. apathy
my possition hasn't changed from when I could afford health care to now that I can't.

when I had no problem covering everything my family needed I still saw no need for anyone in this country to go without basic healthcare.

Apathy...sorry for your job situation

A co-worker and I discussed this the other night sort of. Is it the government that is the problem or the 5million a year CEO for the insurance company. Is it the government or the 2 cent pill that costs 3.00 at the counter.

The government may hold some of the blame....but the insurance companies , drug companies and pretty much the entire medical industry IMHO hold the biggest part of it.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #32 on:** December 22, 2005, 07:27:44 PM »

I agree that greedy drug companies hold the lions share of the blame for high prescription prices.

there is also the basic bureaucracy in the insurance industry that increases the cost of health-care without having a positive effect on the service(as far as hands on medical care, I don't know how this affects prescriptions).

I was talking to one of my doctors the other day (luckily I do still receive medical care on the issues related to my work injury. although it's rough to go to your appointments knowing there is no money for your wife to see a doctor). he was telling me that in the late 70's for every 2 hands on medical care providers they had 1 additional support staff (basically doctor, nurse or assistant, and then receptionist/billing) he says the hospital had similar if not more efficient ratios. now it's more like 4-5 handling paper work for every care provider, this does not count the pencil pushers working directly for the insurance company who also chew on your health-care dollar.

but there is also no shortage of blame for the gov't. it is more interested in protecting the profits of the medical industry than it's citizens. a couple simple and fairly high profile points are medical marijuana and people going to Canada to get their meds. I find the gov't stance on these issues particularly offensive considering this administrations alleged stance on states rights and free trade.

both of these could lower health care costs. for the price of a grow light and a bit of potting soil chronic pain sufferers could supply their own meds at no cost to anyone.

and if we are to believe the republican philosophy on free trade, a bit of competition across the Canadian border could only make our local drug companies more efficient and their products more affordable.

why is it OK for a company to shop around and get the most bang for their labor buck over-seas but our drug companies can't handle the competition.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #33 on:** December 22, 2005, 07:31:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by capt. apathy
I agree that greedy drug companies hold the lions share of the blame for high prescription prices.

.

Ah yes, research and development costs for new drugs, fighting new diseases is so cheap too! Why, if we force those drug company's to a set amount of profit I'm sure we can develope new drugs and cures for diseases!

capt. apathy · « **Reply #34 on:** December 22, 2005, 07:38:07 PM »

not saying to regulate there profits or anything like that, just don't regulate the customer either.

let people get their meds from where ever they choose. keep the laws that say drugs sold in the US need to be FDA approved. but when people choose to grow their own meds, or buy them over-seas, lets call that free trade and protect it.

btw- how much do they spend giving trips and bribes to doctors to get there meds prescribed (even for diseases they aren't approved to be used on)? how much do they spend on lobbyists to influence law to get higher profits. any way I could just have that percentage of the cost deducted from my prescriptions and just let the people who are OK with that sort of business practice pick up that tab. if I'm going to be forced by my gov't to do business with these people I should have the option of opting out on 'services' they offer that I don't approve of.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #35 on:** December 22, 2005, 07:46:40 PM »

bout time we started fighting the poor. They need to do their part to pay their fair share of taxes.

RedTop · « **Reply #36 on:** December 22, 2005, 07:57:54 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ripsnort
Ah yes, research and development costs for new drugs, fighting new diseases is so cheap too! Why, if we force those drug company's to a set amount of profit I'm sure we can develope new drugs and cures for diseases!

Hi Rip

Without googleing til I'm blue , cause I don't need to , do you think drugs are fair priced?

Lets say Xeloda , 60 day supply , 2000.00? I don't mean from some cheap drugs company , I mean thats what it costs to get it from a pharmacy. You know when they only charge you your Co-Pay yet you see the bill. Over 2k for 60 day supply.

How about Aredia. 1 shot. 4500.00. Thats what is on the bill anyway.

How about a CT Scan. 1 every 3 months for say....over 3k. 15 minutes under a machine. done.

Hey here's a good one. Bone scan. Yeah the ole Nuclear medicine. 8500.00 billed to the insurance company.

PET Scan. Now theres another one.

How about Daily meds. Say Cumiden , Lorazapam , Phenegren and about 5 more pills. This is of course just to keep you out of pain , calm , and try to make your life , or whats left of it , tolerable and somewhat of a quality of life for a bit.

So , If I remember correctly it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-4 k a month for normal pills and add to that when the xeloda came around.

I totally understand R/D being expensive. But do you honestly think for an instance that the drug companies aren't frkin killing us?

I agree with most of the others posts here.

I HATE DESPISE paying taxes for some deadbeat POC to sit on thier lazy butt and let us pay thier way.

But Health insurance costs , and things associated with it are out of control.

bj229r · « **Reply #37 on:** December 23, 2005, 06:25:13 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by capt. apathy
what facts?

most jobs I see (and I've been looking) pay somewhere between 7.25 and 9.

at my previous job the contribution for our health&welfare plan (payed by the employer as part of our contract)was just under $9 per hour. doesn't leave much for luxuries like a roof or food.

my mother in-law has a good job, has had it for 20 years. manages a bank branch. her husband is sick, virtually every penny of her income goes to medical care, they are living off his retirement and second mortgages.

yes there are new jobs, but Wal-mart, or one of those new manufacturing jobs (manufacturing burgers at Burger King) aren't going to pay enough to support your family in this economy.

this administration has a national health plan. plan not to get sick, or you're gonna die.

Judging by the possible choices for perspective employment you mentioned, I would suggest you acquire some $@$#@#@ SKILLS that WARRANT decent pay--not a lot of mba's working at Walmart or Burger King--the capitalist system is there for you to make of it what you will--- if that is a problem, move to France, with their free health care, anemic economy, and double-digit unemployment. If you could make $20 an hour at Walmart, WHY bother to LEARN any valuable skills?

lazs2 · « **Reply #38 on:** December 23, 2005, 10:49:22 AM »

apathy... if you feel that you should help others when you are doing well then you are welcome to do so... It is called charity... I give to two very efficient charities ritght now.... If I paid less taxes I would give more.

You want things regulated by a strong government yet complain when drugs are expensive.... there are lots of drugs out there that would be cheap to put on the market.... if.... you are willing to forgo the testing process or, even, shorten it. sure... a few may die or get sick..

You want government health care even tho it will be the end of malpractice suits (ever sue the government?) but you are unwilling to fix the better system we have now by limiting malpractice.

Cheaper drugs and limitied malpractice would make the system we have much cheaper for everyone than any socialized medicine program (except the very bottom of the barrel useless).

It has been estimated that health care would be about 20% of current rates if malpractice suits were limited and the drug testing procedure were streamlined.

How do any of you think a governement run health care system could be as good as the one we have and be affordable? Have you never been to a public school or DMV or watched a government program in action?

Or... do you simply think that we should destroy the productive people in the U.S. with crushing taxes?

lazs

capt. apathy · « **Reply #39 on:** December 23, 2005, 11:11:21 AM »

I think we could apply the money we pissed away (and are pissing away now) in Iraq.

if you read the previous posts, you'd see I also said to let our drug companies have a bit of competition, have the gov't stop enforcing their monopoly for them and allow people to use medical marijuana and get drugs from over seas if they choose to do so.

see the problem with this and most other republican administrations, is that they talk a good game on deregulation and getting the gov't out of your life but they really only want to deregulate corporations and the rich, and regulate the rest of us for them.

explain this to me if you can. how does not allowing people to get their meds in Canada, and fighting so hard against state laws allowing the medical use of marijuana (again, both issues that would reduce health costs, even for those who don't opt for these) fit into this administrations public philosophy? how does this fit with an ideology of free trade, open competition, and state rights?

my guess is that it fits if this administration is in the pocket of big business. but I'd like to hear yours.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #40 on:** December 23, 2005, 11:36:55 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by bj229r
Judging by the possible choices for perspective employment you mentioned, I would suggest you acquire some $@$#@#@ SKILLS that WARRANT decent pay--not a lot of mba's working at Walmart or Burger King--the capitalist system is there for you to make of it what you will--- if that is a problem, move to France, with their free health care, anemic economy, and double-digit unemployment. If you could make $20 an hour at Walmart, WHY bother to LEARN any valuable skills?

I have skills, just can't use them. was making 50-60k a year 3 years ago, in the top of my field, and actually making much less than I could have been but holding back until my kids were raised. 2 years from now my youngest will graduate HS, then my earnings would have climbed 10-20k a year.

even factoring in no raises and only working 1,500-2000 hrs a year I would have been able to retire in my mid 50's at around 125-150k per year in pension and would have been sitting on an annuity worth about $1/3M.

I'm not lazy, I don't go running around with out a plan. I've been working my bellybutton off and taking care of other people since I was in my teens.

the problem is that people get to forgetting how lucky they are. they start to thinking they deserve all of their toys, their nice houses, and soft lives. maybe they do. but there are a lot of people who put in just as much work and planning and don't have those things. but those that do can pretend these people don't exist.

you see the people that it doesn't work out for don't live in your community, you don't talk to them, and it's real easy to pretend they don't exist. that all of those people with nothing, have nothing because they do nothing. some of those people have nothing because they never had anything and they never had a shot.

I hear so many people who have great jobs and nice homes talk of how they are 'self made men' and 'did it on their own. I'd suggest they stop crowing, and thumping their chests for a minute and realize how much help they've had.

did you have a reasonably safe neighborhood? any body shoot at you on your way home?

get enough to eat? medical care? a place to study? could you do your homework at night or did you have to help your family make a living?

did God bless you (or where you lucky if that's how your ideology runs) with a sound mind and body, and the good fortune to be safe from accidents or disease throughout your life, or the ability to fight back from them?

when you became old enough to make your own way did you have an address to put down on an application so you could look for a job? did you have a phone number they could call if they wanted to hire you? how did you get those things before you "made yourself"?

we are the wealthiest nation on earth. there is no reason that anybody should go without basic medical attention, or a fighting shot at an education.

BTW- you should be thankful for all those people who are 'beneath you' if it weren't for them you'd be the lowest POS in this nation.

Lye-El · « **Reply #41 on:** December 23, 2005, 06:28:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by LePaul
Pft, I havent seen even the burger joints paying minimal wage in years.

Most of those places around here are screaming for employees. The local mall I work Saturday's at hires kids for between $8 and $8.75

But hey, by all means, dont be turned off by the facts

Isn't a local mall anywhere around here. And your probably right. They pay everybody too much in the city. And nobody is screaming for employees around here. Not everybody is in a rosy urban enviroment with malls that can't hire people at 8$ an hour. But don't let that fact enter your urban focused mind.

ROC · « **Reply #42 on:** December 23, 2005, 06:32:50 PM »

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Its the same as the war on Christmas

LOL Lew, Good one! That's pretty much a joke as well.

Merry Christmas by the way

Hope all is well with you, get back on BW, no one said you could leave.

(Thought this thread died, suprised to see it pop up again)

bj229r · « **Reply #43 on:** December 23, 2005, 06:35:47 PM »

Hospitals are going under in a lot of cities due to the free medical care they are forced to give to those who have no insurance---in border towns like in south Texas, Mexicans come across the border JUST to have their babies (at our expense) then go back home, leaving an already-strained hospital with yet anouth $20-30k bill that wont get paid--NOONE is turned away from a public hostpital in this country, which isn't to say that old folks dont have to often pay a lot for their meds--the prescription drug benefit program Bush pushed through a few years ago is starting about now (to a collective YAWN from the media), which is suppose to help address that. That being said, I don't think Jefferson put anything in the constitution about free medical care.

Quote

the problem is that people get to forgetting how lucky they are. they start to thinking they deserve all of their toys, their nice houses, and soft lives. maybe they do. but there are a lot of people who put in just as much work and planning and don't have those things. but those that do can pretend these people don't exist.

I dont know that i'm lucky, but I DO deserve the stuff I have--I'm a blue collar puke (electronic techie) I work 2 jobs--have had 1 day off this month. watermelon happens...wife got cancer this year, got tons of bills..lost income...the worst thing ya can do is look at what others have and feel jealousy or envy--utterly UNproductive emotion

Ripsnort · « **Reply #44 on:** December 23, 2005, 06:41:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by RedTop
Hi Rip

Without googleing til I'm blue , cause I don't need to , do you think drugs are fair priced?

Lets say Xeloda , 60 day supply , 2000.00? I don't mean from some cheap drugs company , I mean thats what it costs to get it from a pharmacy. You know when they only charge you your Co-Pay yet you see the bill. Over 2k for 60 day supply.

How about Aredia. 1 shot. 4500.00. Thats what is on the bill anyway.

How about a CT Scan. 1 every 3 months for say....over 3k. 15 minutes under a machine. done.

Hey here's a good one. Bone scan. Yeah the ole Nuclear medicine. 8500.00 billed to the insurance company.

PET Scan. Now theres another one.

How about Daily meds. Say Cumiden , Lorazapam , Phenegren and about 5 more pills. This is of course just to keep you out of pain , calm , and try to make your life , or whats left of it , tolerable and somewhat of a quality of life for a bit.

So , If I remember correctly it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-4 k a month for normal pills and add to that when the xeloda came around.

I totally understand R/D being expensive. But do you honestly think for an instance that the drug companies aren't frkin killing us?

I agree with most of the others posts here.

I HATE DESPISE paying taxes for some deadbeat POC to sit on thier lazy butt and let us pay thier way.

But Health insurance costs , and things associated with it are out of control.

Just a quick reply as I can't answer each and every one of these, but this much I do know:
Aredia is administered on a monthly basis. Its roughly $1000 a shot (here in Seattle, Wifes a nursing administrator), and yes, it does cost alot to manufacture. Y

ou should try researching how much this stuff (Pharms) costs to manufacture, you'll see that the profit is slightly higher than what the average restaurant makes off a bottle of wine at in a restaurant.

I'd rather pay alittle more for top notch research and development, thats why the average age continues to rise globally.