Originally posted by lazs2
Hmm... weird how two sites can have such different numbers.
this site says that stalin was directly responsible for the deaths of 20 million of his own people... I would say tho that if you die in prison in large numbers it is a little more than a simple prison eh?
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm
lazs
Lazs, see I try to be calm, partient and honest. If you really interesting in this subject, I'll try to give your all availabe data which you don't have because it is in Russian.
Your link confirms numbers I provided , but it called them "Lower Numbers school".
Numbers I gave you were taken from archives, and they are very precise.
The same numbers in your link:
" Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53. "
"Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53." - more but this includes real criminals (murders) who were sentenced death penalty.
Death rate in prison. Yep, prison is not resourt but I don't think that 2-3% death rate is very high. If you take into consideration that used to get 25 years it means that it is life sentence. 20% in 1942-1943... ok, you are clever enough to understand why. Just want to remind you that it the same years about 1,000,000 civilians died in Leningrad siege because of starvation. 1933... you talked a lot about starvation on Ukraine, now you can see it in numbers.
Ok, now , what does it mean - "Stalin directly responicble"? Numbers I provided are actually reflection of number of sentences. They are well known, they exists in archives, you can find them. But actually even with these numbers we have some problems. It is known that total numbe of all criminal records in archive for the period of Stalin is about 9,500,000. Who was real criminals, and who was innocent? If we define "repressed" as "convicted for counterrevolutionary activites" (paragraph 58) only 3,770,000 were real victims of Stalin's regim. But somebody can state that all who were convicted during 1930-1953 are victims. It means no criminals at all! Hard to argue but hard to believe.
And the last. My numbers didn't include death which happened not in Gulag (starvations). I don't know that numbers. If you are going to add another 100,000,000 it is ok, it is up to you. But it will be just your guess. Most of the scientists from the "Large number school" calculated numbers like "population in 1929 plus average birth rate minus polulation in 1953). Average birth rate during the war? Where? In the USA? Or in Germany?
I can believe that the USSR lost 20,000,000 -50,000,000 during 1929-1953. But I don't believe that we should claim Stalin for all these deaths.
