Author Topic: Kabul is bombed.  (Read 4691 times)

Offline Hangtime

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #60 on: October 08, 2001, 01:01:00 PM »
Boroda..

Being a Muslim is not a criminal offense. At least, not in this country. Your troops seem to have not been instructed on that little detail in your Chechnya Troubles. Also, starving the region, killing retreating refugees and burning down hospitals with paitents in them seems like a wonderful way to restore the peace....

You reap what you sow. Your nations track record stinks a lot worse than mine.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline SOB

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2001, 01:01:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by -lynx-:
bunch of reasonable stuff

That all makes sense and I agree and I'm not arguing it.  What annoyed me was Boroda acting like an bellybutton and making unbased assumptions without any facts.  He does that well, and I commend him for it.   :)


SOB
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Offline easymo

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2001, 01:15:00 PM »
"It's illegaly occupied since 1967, thanks to bolsheviks who lost our copy of a contract."

  The dog ate my homework.

Offline Sky Viper

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« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2001, 01:15:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime:
Boroda..

We share more similar intrests in the international view than you may be willing to concede.

Suffice to say, if either of our national intrests are assaulted, a reaction will occur. Those Terrorist Towel Heads trashed the WTC, killed over 5,000 civilians. Innocent Civilians.

Tell me.. if that happened in Moscow, and your intelligence service was able to fix responsibility as we have, what would be your nations military response be?

I'd think it would be obvious to both of us that destruction of the Talibans command/control and air defense capabilities would be step one in any operation intended to root out the Taliban supported terrorists.

As for our mutual ability to kill indescriminatly... well, hell; that goes without saying. Both our country, and your old 'USSR' were no strangers to 'unlimited war' in the past.. and it's also ovious we have not commenced on an 'unlimited war' here now. Not yet anyway..

Should the terrorists respond here with chemical or biological attacks within our borders against our civilians we will probably switch our strategy very quickly from 'point offense' to 'Unsheduled Sunrise'.

Lets hope the Terrorists don't REALLY piss off the USA. Then you'll have something to squeak about.

Aside from the "Towel Head" adjective, I agree with Hangtime.

Let me also add that we (USA) has been the only country to "EVER" lead Military action that is limited so as to limit civilian casualties.
YES, in many cases, the US Military has taken inocent civilian life as a result of war actions. YES, it hurts us (US Citizens) as humans that such a thing happens.
However, I would point out that there is not a single case in history where we have not attempted civil means to a peacful end.
From the formation of our Country in 1776, our every effort has been to settle differences by commnuication and negotiation first.
Even in present day our leaders represented that ideal with the patience indicated by a 4 week pause in which "ANY" government, including the Taliban, could have turned over any Terrorist Leader or activist.
In stead, those who harbor and protect murders have strongly denied that peaceful request.
America and our Allies have waited long enough.

It is unfortunate that we must all cloud our minds with the factor of civilian casualty.
Thousands (or is it millions) of Afgan citizens have displayed their recognition of right and wrong by not standing with bin Laden or the Taliban government.  They set out on a pilgramage that would remove them from the areas they know to be wrong.
Anyone who remains behind is either to weak to move, or is a supporter of the Terror that has lead to US Military action.

Differences in Opinnion,  Religious or Gramatical are never a good cause for death. However there are those who chose to blind themselves with their beliefs and so cause lives to be lost.

Civil casualty is an unfortunate factor of war. But, our ability to limit such casualty is evident by our patience and offering of refuge.

I would also remind you that the USA has provided more civil assistance to the world than ANY other country in history!
We have been there to help when NO ONE else would, and NOT ONE country has EVER come to our aid!  EVER!!!

Borda,
We (USA) may make mistakes, we may do damage to civilian life, but we will not take action that is not justified.  Our culture is drenched with this concept, and I trust our leaders will make decisions that will be in keeping with this concept.

Rember also that no matter how ANYTHING is done, there will ALWAYS be someone who will disagree and try to force the rest of the world to accept their idea.  That's just human.
It is up to each of us to band together with those who share our desires, dreams, and interests, to make life what we want.

And to your question, "One question: why Kabul?..."
WHY NOT? Too Holy?


Viper

Offline Sky Viper

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2001, 01:21:00 PM »
BTW,
Considering the weapons at our (USA) disposal, I think that if the Taliban and US leaders were to switch places right now, then Afganistan would be a Giant Glass Bowl!!!

I think we are being very careful to get this right.

Viper

Offline Udie

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2001, 01:38:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda:

About Alaska: it was rented for 99 years. It's illegaly occupied since 1967, thanks to bolsheviks who lost our copy of a contract.


ROFL!!!

 If you want to try and rewrite Russia's history over the past 60 yrs, that's ok. But puhleeeeez don't even try to start revising the USA's history.

 Guys I think we found an even lamer excuse than the "dog ate my homework" one of our youths.


 BTW Boroda,  I'm still interested in those questions I asked you in the other thread. It seems, to me anyway, that our nations interest are starting to be similar.  I still would like to talk to you about all that stuff.....

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2001, 01:44:00 PM »
Hangtime, if it is what Western media tells about operation in Chechnya - then my hope for the union against terrorists is premature.

Many Russians think that the responce for the genocide of Russian population in Chechnya, bombs in apartment houses and Moscow underground, taking maternity homes as hostages (yes, it happened in 1995!) etc. is too soft.

Being a moslim is not a crime here. More then 30% of Russian citizens are Moslims. There is no more religious discrimination here any more. Many Moslims are on high official duty and they are respected members of the society.

The fight is against people who think it's a crime NOT to be a Moslim.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #67 on: October 08, 2001, 01:56:00 PM »
Udie, sorry for the delay...

About Alaska: there actually are two versions of what happened in 1867. The version I stated here isn't an "official" now. There are no papers to prove unconditional purchasing of Alaska, and no papers to prove that it was rented. I have chosen that one just to look at your reaction  ;) Anyway, noone will ever claim Alaska back. In fact we still have enough unpopulated space in Siberia.

Udie, we have common interests, but we must avoid double-standards. A hard thing after 80 years of roadkill.

Offline Red Ant

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« Reply #68 on: October 08, 2001, 02:04:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sky Viper:


We have been there to help when NO ONE else would, and NOT ONE country has EVER come to our aid!  EVER!!!

Viper

Well, that isn't exactly true. The French helped us twice, during the Revolutionary war and during the Civil War.

I find this thread disquieting. Parties on both sides of the Atlantic need to finally realize that the Cold War has been over for some time. Boroda - your attitude towards the U.S. shows a childhood spent digesting anti-american propaganda, just like the attitude of MOST Americans here shows a chilhood spent digesting anti-soviet propaganda. This HAS TO STOP. Both coutries have enough skeletons in their respective closets to keep these back & forth recriminations going indefinitely. If you strip away the years of hostility and ignorance, its quite clear that no other two countries stand to profit as much from true friendship, and have so many obvious similarities. Take it from me, I've lived in both (USSR for 15 years, USA for 22 years & counting).

As for the sheer pointlessness of the above debate, i refer you all to my next post  :)

Offline Naso

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« Reply #69 on: October 08, 2001, 02:04:00 PM »
Hangtime, Boroda, I think this discussion is leading us to discover something very important about our respective media.

Got it?

 ;)

Offline Red Ant

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« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2001, 02:05:00 PM »
The following is a re-post of my posting on A.G.W.

A Pragmatist/Cynical Perspective: Warning, Wall Of Text to follow

1st a disclaimer of sorts: The following is an attempt at analysis, and is therefeore entirely devoid of any sentiment whatsoever. But before anyone accuses me of being a heartless unfeeling bastard, understand that I'm a New Yorker who LOVES
NYC more than any other place in the world, and have been deeply affected by the devastation and loss of life. However, in this, I've tried to divorce my emotions from the subject at hand.


Firstly, let us be clear - last week's attack was not on the U.S per se - this was an attack on the New Global Economy.
After all, the primary target was the World (Global) Trade (economy) Center (major target). What we have here are actions by
countries/groups/individuals who are opposed to this Global Economy, and wish to be removed/set apart/be isolated from it.
Well, as beasts go the World Economy is relatively benign - it tolerates all kinds of differences. However, it has one overriding Commandment: "THOU SHALT PARTICIPATE". The world IS being remade as we live and breathe, and the last 15 years, with the demise of the Soviet Bloc and the economic opening of China, are an object lesson to all. AT this point, the New Global Economy isn't even that new - it is an INEVITABILITY. The Communications Revolution, among other factors, has made this one a sure bet. This is obviously a HUGE threat to those who wish to be insulated from the influences of the World at large, and huddle in their own religious/cultural/national/racial corner. The Taliban is clearly one of the more extreme manifestations of this desire, but they are far from alone - the overthrow of the Shah of Iran and the establishment of the
"Islamic Republic" heralded this movement back in 1979. What we have here is even larger than the "War of Islam vs Democracy" that the media has started to crow about in the past week. What we have is nothing less than a PARADIGM WAR. The Global Economy, being the New Paradigm, is being targeted by the forces of the Old (national/religious/regional/racial) Paradigm. As such, this is bound to be a rather painfull and protracted affair - the boys will NOT be home by Xmas, people  :(
I expect this conflict to take a GENERATION or two, before the dust finally settles - possibly as long as it took Capitalism to defeat State Communism. The sad thing is that the Old Paradigm has already LOST, and they KNOW it. The mere fact that these latest attacks were SUICIDE attacks, and the fact that suicide attacks in general have risen sharply over the last few years, demonstrates this. No matter how much religious indoctrination & fervor, our 1st prority as individuals is always Survival, and giving up one's life in this way pre-supposes a cetrain amount of desperation and hopeless defiance. Allow me to draw a parallel to the Kamikaze phenomenon: By the time the Kamikaze appeared, the war was well & truly lost for Japan. Well, the war was lost for the forces of the Old Paradigm before a shot was fired, but that doesnt mean that, like the Kamikaze, they wont at least try to take a lot of us with them  :(

Which brings me to my second point: how will this war be fought, and how should the United States, being the formost enforcer of the New World Economic Order, go about fighting it? Clearly the old "War of nation-states" paradigm is nigh useless in this - there is no standing army over yonder hill for us to kick the crap out of. At the same time, we as a nation are more
vulnerable to attack than ever, for the same reasons that dictate that we will eventually win this war: the Communications/Technology Revolution and our open, individual freedom loving way of life. So how do we proceed?
To begin with, whatever action we take has to be EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE. Meaning that whatever we do better severely decrease the chances of successful terrorist attacks such as last week's. Any ineffective "gestures" will only get more of our people killed. Secondly, the Massive Military Option, especially the Nuclear response that I've seen being called for by some, is VERY unlikely, for two reasons: one is the lack of definite "hard" targets, and two is the massive loss of life, and therefore potential customers. Dead people don't buy Reeboks. So I expect to see "surgical" military operations ( Air and Ground/SpecFor both) systematically applied, alongside MASSIVE econo-political operations. Serious thought will also have to be given to "Home Defense", as demonstrated by the new office of Home Security recently established.

My point is, this is most certainly a War, and it will be a long war, and there will be casualties, of all kinds. But, the outcome has never been in doubt, the Global Economy will win this one hands down.

My second point is that while Patriotism & flag-waving is all well and good for the morale, it is rather misplaced - after all I'm not going to wave the General Foods company flag, are you? So in my view, all this bad feeling and acrimony that i've seen here of late is not only sad and divisive, it's simply off-target.

Offline Naso

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« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2001, 02:18:00 PM »
Red Ant.

<S!>

Good reading.

P.S.
At least you think with your head  ;)
 :D

Offline Sky Viper

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« Reply #72 on: October 08, 2001, 04:20:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Red Ant:


Well, that isn't exactly true. The French helped us twice, during the Revolutionary war and during the Civil War.
Well, ok.
But for nearly 200 years, America has stood on her own, and even the help of the French pales in comparison to the aid we have provided the World (France included) since that time.
 
Quote
Originally posted by Red Ant:


I find this thread disquieting. Parties on both sides of the Atlantic need to finally realize that the Cold War has been over for some time. Boroda - your attitude towards the U.S. shows a childhood spent digesting anti-american propaganda, just like the attitude of MOST Americans here shows a chilhood spent digesting anti-soviet propaganda. This HAS TO STOP. Both coutries have enough skeletons in their respective closets to keep these back & forth recriminations going indefinitely. If you strip away the years of hostility and ignorance, its quite clear that no other two countries stand to profit as much from true friendship, and have so many obvious similarities. Take it from me, I've lived in both (USSR for 15 years, USA for 22 years & counting).

As for the sheer pointlessness of the above debate, i refer you all to my next post   :)

The way that I grew up, I didn't have to digest any anti-anybody propaganda!
Don't forget that the 1960-1980 Generations of the USA were focused on peace.  Propaganda, although still present, became recognizable and unacceptable (well mostly).
I suppose someone could say that the Propagators just learned better methods of delivery, but we do get news from the world now. Not just US Media Points of View.
No one shut off our news access!

Viper

Offline fd ski

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #73 on: October 08, 2001, 04:38:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sky Viper:


The way that I grew up, I didn't have to digest any anti-anybody propaganda!
Don't forget that the 1960-1980 Generations of the USA were focused on peace.  Propaganda, although still present, became recognizable and unacceptable (well mostly).
I suppose someone could say that the Propagators just learned better methods of delivery, but we do get news from the world now. Not just US Media Points of View.
No one shut off our news access!

Viper


My dear friend SkyViper...
While state based propaganda might not be present here, the money making one is. All news here is brought down to the lowest inteligence level to make sure that every moron gets it. Total lack of objectiveness is only paled by lack of intelligence on the part of most anchors. While in itself it is not propaganda, it surely isn't much better.

I lived though commie propaganda, remember watching news and laughing out loud cause i knew it was BS, and i was very young at the time.
Here, i'm sad to say it isn't much different. News organizations have agendas of thier owners and sponsors, CNN - liberal, Fox news ( "we report you decide" ? sure... ) is conservative/republican all across the board. Also, watching and reading news in this country you might be lead to think that there is no world on the other side of pacific or atlantic...

Gotta go.. train coming soon..
Just an FYI... BBS is the best news station one can read / watch.

Offline Red Ant

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« Reply #74 on: October 08, 2001, 05:08:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sky Viper:

Don't forget that the 1960-1980 Generations of the USA were focused on peace.  Propaganda, although still present, became recognizable and unacceptable (well mostly).
Viper

That is one naive statement. The so-called "peace-movement" was in itself a product of propaganda, and a generator of same. Look into the finances behind the "peace movement" and if you dig deep enough you will see SOVIET money being funneled into it, both here in the U.S and even more so in Europe. Ditto for the No-Nukes movement, again especially in Europe. Yes, we have the Soviets (in part) to thank for our last few Energy Crises, and the fact that nuclear energy development was buried here in the U.S.
Mind you, I'm usually the LAST person to cry "conspiracy!", but the facts in these cases are incontrovertible.