Author Topic: Civil liberities at risk.  (Read 2074 times)

Offline Eagler

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Re: Re: you paraniod folk...
« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2006, 03:01:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2Slow
..
Assuming that a shadow is falling upon the land,
...
 

you wanna see a shadow, let future terror attacks on US soil push this great nation into the status of a third world country practically overnight

what do you think would happen to this country say if/when 2 or 3 suitcase nukes go off NY, LA & Chicago? The implosion following the explosions would unravel the country in a heart beat. Oh yeah, say good bye to your real freedoms, not the ones you are imagining you are losing now..
I fear a massive depression, unemployment, bread lines, rioting, chaos more than someone putting me on a list somewhere, cameras on street corners or some tape capturing my wife jaw jackin with her mother on the telephone...

you guys mean well but have misplaced your concerns IMO
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 03:05:02 PM by Eagler »
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Offline Hangtime

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Civil liberities at risk.
« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2006, 03:46:33 PM »
Evaluate the risk of social collapse following a 2 in 10 fatality rate for Bird Flu, vs the risk of social collapse following a 3 suitcase nuke strike on 3 big blue cities.

You think we're MORE at risk from a nuclear suitcase strike than we are from an influenza epidemic? And, just what is the government doing about it? Protecting itself.. or us?

You think our government is interested in protectiong ITSELF or the Citizens.. err subjects? WHAT are they doing; really? Protecting ME?

Homeland Security, my ass.

I'd rather see the government sweep up illegal ailens they KNOW are here, secure the borders and tighten immigration than spend 50 billion on illegal wiretaps of American Citizens.... err Subjects.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2006, 03:56:06 PM »
You can't stop nature.  You can stop the ****wad Muslim nutjob though.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
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Offline Hangtime

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Civil liberities at risk.
« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2006, 04:10:31 PM »
When the government contracts for enough vaccine to immunize itself and it's soldiers and health care workers but NOT the population, what's THAT saying about 'you can't stop nature'?

When the 'governement' trots out a 'terrorist threat' and disarms old ladies with dangerous knitting needles and STILL does not stop selling visas to Saudi immigrants whats THAT tell yah?

Just WHO do you think your government is trying to protect.. itself; or YOU?

Wake up, dammit.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline EagleDNY

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Re: Civil liberities at risk.
« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2006, 04:12:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2Slow

I continue to hear “We are at War” and this justifies some abridgement of civil liberties.  What war?  Did I miss it?  I have searched the Congressional records and reviewed the President’s addresses to the joint sessions of Congress. I cannot find a  request for or a declaration of war.


I suggest you search for public law 107-40 then - here is a link:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22357.pdf

To quote:
SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

    (a)  <> In General.--That the President is
authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those
nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized,
committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11,
2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any
future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such
nations, organizations or persons.

    (b) War Powers Resolution Requirements.--
            (1) Specific statutory authorization.--Consistent with
        section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress
        declares that this section is intended to constitute specific
        statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of
        the War Powers Resolution.

I particularly note the "in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States" language.  Your elected representatives gave the President the authority to do what he's been doing on your behalf.  

Given that the NSA program is directly credited with stopping 3 different terrorist plots in this country since 9/11, I'm more worried that it has been blown and will no longer be gathering intel for us.  Can you seriously argue that we SHOULDN'T have tagged the cell numbers and email addresses we captured overseas for scrutiny?  That it would have been OK for the NSA to listen in on a phone call from a tagged number in Pakistan to Vancouver BC, but not to Seattle, WA?  

Wake up and smell what you are shovelin'

EagleDNY
$.02

Offline Hangtime

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Civil liberities at risk.
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2006, 04:20:19 PM »
Hey, that would be fine if the info garnered on non-involved and non related citizens.. err, 'subjects' was destroyed. It ain't. It remains in the hands of the government. And tell me, just how secure is THAT?

I've got in my hands excerpts of the files ILLEGALY obtained by the GOVERNMENT 32 years ago on my anti-war activist (at the time) wife.

How DID I get that info?

And, who else has it? Bear in mind, the info was illegaly obtained to begin with.. over 30 freakin years ago!

You want your personal details accessible by GM, GE, United Heathcare and the IRS at will?

Cause, THATs what we're letting 'em compile.. all under the guize of National Security.

WAKE THE HELL UP!
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline 2Slow

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Re: Re: Re: you paraniod folk...
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2006, 04:25:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
you wanna see a shadow, let future terror attacks on US soil push this great nation into the status of a third world country practically overnight

what do you think would happen to this country say if/when 2 or 3 suitcase nukes go off NY, LA & Chicago? The implosion following the explosions would unravel the country in a heart beat. Oh yeah, say good bye to your real freedoms, not the ones you are imagining you are losing now..
I fear a massive depression, unemployment, bread lines, rioting, chaos more than someone putting me on a list somewhere, cameras on street corners or some tape capturing my wife jaw jackin with her mother on the telephone...

you guys mean well but have misplaced your concerns IMO


Your IMO is respected.  I would think one could multiply the Katrina results by a factor of...heck I don't know but it would be high.

We must defend the nation but, not at the cost of the nation.  We cannot sacrifice our nation in order to save it.

Compare the RIPs to another bad faction, KKK.  The KKK wanted to deny civil rights to a lot of people regardless of skin tone.  You were with them or against them.  We did not sacrifice our liberties in order to reign them in.  We increased them for some and used lawful means to pursue them.

Now the RIP's could care less about our civil liberties.  I do imagine they are grinning at the effect they are having on them.  The RIPs want all of us DEAD.

So the 'Israeli-style' pay back is in order.  Slaughter them where they live.
2Slow
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TANSTAAFL

Offline 2Slow

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Re: Re: Civil liberities at risk.
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2006, 04:32:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by EagleDNY
I suggest you search for public law 107-40 then - here is a link:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22357.pdf

To quote:
SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

    (a)  <> In General.--That the President is
authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those
nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized,
committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11,
2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any
future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such
nations, organizations or persons.

    (b) War Powers Resolution Requirements.--
            (1) Specific statutory authorization.--Consistent with
        section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress
        declares that this section is intended to constitute specific
        statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of
        the War Powers Resolution.

I particularly note the "in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States" language.  Your elected representatives gave the President the authority to do what he's been doing on your behalf.  

Given that the NSA program is directly credited with stopping 3 different terrorist plots in this country since 9/11, I'm more worried that it has been blown and will no longer be gathering intel for us.  Can you seriously argue that we SHOULDN'T have tagged the cell numbers and email addresses we captured overseas for scrutiny?  That it would have been OK for the NSA to listen in on a phone call from a tagged number in Pakistan to Vancouver BC, but not to Seattle, WA?  

Wake up and smell what you are shovelin'

EagleDNY
$.02


Good find.  Proves that I suck with the search engines.

I concur with your concern with the blown program.  It is the nature of a successful conter-intelligence program requires it to be secret and the results/victories not be shared.
2Slow
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TANSTAAFL

Offline EagleDNY

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My lost civil liberty...
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2006, 04:32:41 PM »
Speaking of lost civil liberties, I have lost an important one, and it bothers me a whole lot more than NSA listening in on phone calls -

I lost the right of free speech.  Specificially, I lost the right to take out an ad in my local paper 59 days before the next election and tell the world exactly what I thought about my elected representatives.  I lost the right to tell the people around me in as efficient and widespread a manner as I might choose, that I think it would be better if they voted for someone else.  

I didn't lose this right as a result of 9/11, I lost it because Congress wrote a law under the guise of "reform", the President signed it, and the Supreme Court, to their everlasting shame, held 5-4 that the government's interest in making the people safe from the appearance of corruption in elections overrode my constitutional right of free speech.

So the next time you get worried about George Bush, remember that any president is gone in 4-8 years.  Thanks to this so-called "reform", we can now have even more 20, 30, and 40-year careers in the Senate of the United States.  

Worry about that and the effect it has on the future of your children.

EagleDNY
$.02

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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Civil liberities at risk.
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2006, 05:16:48 PM »

Offline g00b

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Civil liberities at risk.
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2006, 06:47:42 PM »
I'm admittedly liberal. However, I respect and like a lot of right wing conservatives and their ideals and count them among my friends. The current establishment is neither and respects neither.

The Bush administration has gone far past the right wing conservative label and gone right into right wing extremism. I've always felt the noblest of right wing ideals was the conservation of our constitutional rights. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are under direct attack by our current adminstration.

To put this into perspective, if it had swung this far to the left, dope would be legal, guns would be illegal, and we'd all be driving zero emmisions vehicles. Yes I seriously belive that's how far right our government has swung.

It's really a shame that, as a whole, the US population doesn't even understand what's going on here. The US government has become an entity onto itself. The citizens are simply here to support it. It is a self perpetuating cycle. Government legislates corporate support, corporations support the government.

Anyone who thinks the government needs to spy on it's own citizens, for their own good, needs to think about that a little harder.

Offline Pooh21

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Civil liberities at risk.
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2006, 07:03:52 PM »
The Government has no right to be spying on American citizens, but if Mr Mohammed Jihad is calling from london then his crap needs to be under surveillence.
Bis endlich der Fiend am Boden liegt.
Bis Bishland bis Bishland bis Bishland wird besiegt!

Offline 2Slow

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Civil liberities at risk.
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2006, 09:38:50 PM »
"far to the left, dope would be legal"

Off subject, but I think it should be.  Kinda.

Here is my plan:

1.  Declare victory in the War on Drugs (WOD).
2.  Change chemical dependency from a criminal event to medical problem.
(which is how it was handled up until around the '30's)
3. Register all addicts in a data base (I know, getting a little spooky here)
4. Set a deadline for registration.
5. All registered addicts will get their drug of addiction over the counter at there favorite drug store.  Paid for by the government.  (wait for it, this will not increase taxes)
6.  All drugs will be manufactured by legal pharmacutical companies.
7. Addiction or possesion by an unregistered person will be a capital offense.
8.  Manufacture, importation, smuggleing of non-government sanctioned addictive drugs or sanctioned will be a capital offense.
9.  DWI under the influence by a registered addict will be a capital offense.
10.  Addicts may demand and will be allowed doseage increases to meet their addiction needs.
11.  Moving sanctioned drugs to a black market will be a capital offense.

The hemp growers will be happy.  The poppy growers will be happy.  The coca growers will be happy.  The U.S. Government will be their client.

The elimination of drug related crime will pay for the entire plan.

Just a thought.  Feel free to move it to another thread.
2Slow
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TANSTAAFL

Offline RedTop

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Civil liberities at risk.
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2006, 09:59:45 PM »
Hangtime wrote:

Quote
Does ANYBODY truly believe that they are personaly 'safer' now than they were on Sept 10th 2001?


Nope. Nor do I feel any more threatened. Is this bad?

Just a question for you folks. And trust me , I'm not trolling or trying to minimize anything here , but does this REALLY have any effect on you what so ever?

I mean of ALL the things that have come since 9-11 I can't really think of 1 thing outside of airport security that effects me daily or even periodocally.

I have my morning Coffee and Cigs. I get ready for work the same. Live the same. Eat out with the wife quite often. My home doesn't feel any different. I still play golf as often as I can. My job is basically the same as it was pre 9-11.

I just see very little in MY personal life that has changed post 9-11.

The governement were robbin us blind in taxes before and are now. Gas was high and is higher. It is dipping into our civil liberties? I can still say what I want when I want. I go where I want when I want.

I do what I want when I want.

I'm just asking folks.....Does this really effect you or is it just another thing to worry about.
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Offline g00b

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Civil liberities at risk.
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2006, 10:29:43 PM »
http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0601.html#13

The Security Threat of Unchecked Presidential Power
Last Thursday [15 December 2005], the "New York Times" exposed the most significant violation of federal surveillance law in the post-Watergate era. President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to engage in domestic spying, wiretapping thousands of Americans and bypassing the legal procedures regulating this activity.

This isn't about the spying, although that's a major issue in itself. This is about the Fourth Amendment protections against illegal search. This is about circumventing a teeny tiny check by the judicial branch, placed there by the legislative branch, placed there 27 years ago -- on the last occasion that the executive branch abused its power so broadly.

In defending this secret spying on Americans, Bush said that he relied on his constitutional powers (Article 2) and the joint resolution passed by Congress after 9/11 that led to the war in Iraq. This rationale was spelled out in a memo written by John Yoo, a White House attorney, less than two weeks after the attacks of 9/11. It's a dense read and a terrifying piece of legal contortionism, but it basically says that the president has unlimited powers to fight terrorism. He can spy on anyone, arrest anyone, and kidnap anyone and ship him to another country ... merely on the suspicion that he might be a terrorist. And according to the memo, this power lasts until there is no more terrorism in the world.

Yoo starts by arguing that the Constitution gives the president total power during wartime. He also notes that Congress has recently been quiescent when the president takes some military action on his own, citing President Clinton's 1998 strike against Sudan and Afghanistan.

Yoo then says: "The terrorist incidents of September 11, 2001, were surely far graver a threat to the national security of the United States than the 1998 attacks. ... The President's power to respond militarily to the later attacks must be correspondingly broader."

This is novel reasoning. It's as if the police would have greater powers when investigating a murder than a burglary.

More to the point, the congressional resolution of Sept. 14, 2001, specifically refused the White House's initial attempt to seek authority to preempt any future acts of terrorism, and narrowly gave Bush permission to go after those responsible for the attacks on the Pentagon and World Trade Center.

Yoo's memo ignored this. Written 11 days after Congress refused to grant the president wide-ranging powers, it admitted that "the Joint Resolution is somewhat narrower than the President's constitutional authority," but argued "the President's broad constitutional power to use military force ... would allow the President to ... [take] whatever actions he deems appropriate ... to pre-empt or respond to terrorist threats from new quarters."

Even if Congress specifically says no.

The result is that the president's wartime powers, with its armies, battles, victories, and congressional declarations, now extend to the rhetorical "War on Terror": a war with no fronts, no boundaries, no opposing army, and -- most ominously -- no knowable "victory." Investigations, arrests, and trials are not tools of war. But according to the Yoo memo, the president can define war however he chooses, and remain "at war" for as long as he chooses.

This is indefinite dictatorial power. And I don't use that term lightly; the very definition of a dictatorship is a system that puts a ruler above the law. In the weeks after 9/11, while America and the world were grieving, Bush built a legal rationale for a dictatorship. Then he immediately started using it to avoid the law.

This is, fundamentally, why this issue crossed political lines in Congress. If the president can ignore laws regulating surveillance and wiretapping, why is Congress bothering to debate reauthorizing certain provisions of the Patriot Act? Any debate over laws is predicated on the belief that the executive branch will follow the law.

This is not a partisan issue between Democrats and Republicans; it's a president unilaterally overriding the Fourth Amendment, Congress and the Supreme Court. Unchecked presidential power has nothing to do with how much you either love or hate George W. Bush. You have to imagine this power in the hands of the person you most don't want to see as president, whether it be Dick Cheney or Hillary Rodham Clinton, Michael Moore or Ann Coulter.

Laws are what give us security against the actions of the majority and the powerful. If we discard our constitutional protections against tyranny in an attempt to protect us from terrorism, we're all less safe as a result.