Vatican deals blow to Intelligent Design

[Ack-Ack]

Vatican says Intelligent Design not science...

If the Vatican can realize that ID is nothing but dogma, why can't the others?



ack-ack

[1K3]

wasnt there a thread about this already?

[NUKE]

From the same article,  AKAK. Maybe they could teach this in science class.
 

What the church does insist upon is that the emergence of the human supposes a willful act of God, and that man cannot be seen as only the product of evolutionary processes, it said. The spiritual element of man is not something that could have developed from natural selection but required an "ontological leap," it said.

The article said that, unfortunately, what has helped fuel the intelligent design debate is a tendency among some Darwinian scientists to view evolution in absolute and ideological terms, as if everything -- including first causes -- can be attributed to chance.

"Science as such, with its methods, can neither demonstrate nor exclude that a superior design has been carried out," it said.

[Seagoon]

I don't know Ack, possibly because the majority of ID scholars don't actually take their marching orders from liberal Christians in the Vatican?

For instance:

Darwin This
and
Typical Objections to Intelligent Design

From "Darwin This":

"Lipskar, a soft-spoken man with a thick charcoal beard and wire-rim spectacles, ranks among Miami's most influential rabbis. And like Tendler, he believes Jews should back the intelligent design movement. "The fundamental question the theory answers is, accidental or intentional?" he explains. "If it's accidental, then what's the point? But if there's design, we're here for a reason." Lipskar also advocates bringing intelligent design into Jewish classrooms. "It should be taught together with chemistry and physics," he says.

In fact much of the debate at Torah and Science turned to whether intelligent design should be integrated into Jewish-school science classes; Miami's Center for the Advancement of Jewish Education even signed on as a sponsor. The organization's president, Chaim Botwinick, says the event is a harbinger. "Many Jewish schools are beginning to discuss making intelligent design an integral part of their curriculum," he explains. Among them, he adds, are a handful of schools in Miami, a city that has long been a stronghold of traditional Judaism. "

- SEAGOON

[Ouaibe]

Seagoon, I don't read every post on this bbs but it seems you know what you are talking about, theological speaking.

My question is: do you believe, seriously, in Intelligent Design?

Why this question. Readers should know that this belief is almost exclusive to the USA. Religious from all other the world aren't found on it, most don't even know his existance.
I'm 50% protestant & 50% catholic but i'm agnostic since my teenage years. It doesn't mean that I know everything about Cahtolic or Protestant but i've been around quite a few religious from both side. Darwin isn't loved by them, mind you, even if I know one Catholic priest that believe in it.
But none of them, i mean not a single one, think that "Intelligent Design" is a science, or something we have to give credit for.

[midnight Target]

It must be good science... A rabbi endorses it!

[*NDM*JohnnyX]

There's a science industry in America? When did this happen? I've heard stories of such a thing....

[BluKitty]

I heard a nice joke idea from some guest of John Stewart........

If you don't belive in evolution you shouldn't be allowed to get a flu shot...... because if there is no evolution, the flu doesn't evolve and your immune!  So you don't need a shot, do you?    

I can't belive people still try to debate science with guessing......

[Maverick]

Does intelligent design postulate that a supreme being created everything as it is now? Is it possible that the intelligent design was started, by the designer, with the idea that it follow a darwinian style path?


Seagoon, are you postulating that there are Christians in the Vatican that are Catholic, or that there are non Catholics in the Vatican thereby providing the Christian aspect to the statement you posted above?

[ChickenHawk]

Originally posted by BluKitty
I heard a nice joke idea from some guest of John Stewart........

If you don't belive in evolution you shouldn't be allowed to get a flu shot...... because if there is no evolution, the flu doesn't evolve and your immune!  So you don't need a shot, do you?    

I can't belive people still try to debate science with guessing......

Not this one again.

[Seagoon]

Hi Maverick,

Originally posted by Maverick
Seagoon, are you postulating that there are Christians in the Vatican that are Catholic, or that there are non Catholics in the Vatican thereby providing the Christian aspect to the statement you posted above?

I'm sure you are aware of this, but there are Presbyterians, Methodists, and even Baptists who don't believe a word of the bible. There are even clergy in those denominations who fit into that category. In any denomination as vast as the Catholic Church, you have theological conservatives and then you have men in the Priesthood rather like the one who announced to the boys in my Catholic school class many years ago, "now even though we have advanced enough to know that most of the things in the bible didn't really happen, we still have a duty to good unto others, because in the end thats whats important." These men, who can be described as liberal Christians make up a very large and active bloc, even in the Vatican. Ratzinger (now Benedict) for the most part is a very traditional Roman Catholic, but the same cannot be said for every other Priest, Bishop, and Cardinal in Vatican City.

- SEAGOON

[Seagoon]

Hi Ouaibe,

Originally posted by Ouaibe
Seagoon, I don't read every post on this bbs but it seems you know what you are talking about, theological speaking.

My question is: do you believe, seriously, in Intelligent Design?

Why this question. Readers should know that this belief is almost exclusive to the USA. Religious from all other the world aren't found on it, most don't even know his existance.
I'm 50% protestant & 50% catholic but i'm agnostic since my teenage years. It doesn't mean that I know everything about Cahtolic or Protestant but i've been around quite a few religious from both side. Darwin isn't loved by them, mind you, even if I know one Catholic priest that believe in it.
But none of them, i mean not a single one, think that "Intelligent Design" is a science, or something we have to give credit for.

I'm probably much too tired to be answering your question, but I'll give it a shot anyway, please forgive me if I'm unclear.

I am not personally a believer in Intelligent Design as it is propounded by scientists like Behe and Dembski, I am a Biblical creationist. In other words, while they would remain skeptical about the literal truth of Genesis 1 & 2, I am not. Some of the most heated arguments I've had on the subject of origins have actually been with ID proponents, one of whom angrily told me that it was guys like me who allow them to be so easily caricatured (then again he was already angry about my feelings about John 14:6). We do agree however on certain basic assumptions, such as the fact that from nothing, nothing comes (ex nihilo, nihil fit).

Being of European extraction myself, I understand the general feeling towards ID in Europe. Neo-Darwinism has been considered established fact there for so long, and atheism has been so long entrenched that to even suggest that organisms might have been designed by a creator (or creators) rather than being the products of time & chance is roughly the equivalent of suggesting that the earth orbited the Sun and not vice versa in the 1300s. Scientific Materialism, has long been the new priesthood of Europe (and the American intelligentsia) and their dogmas are considered well-nigh unquestionable. Even other Scientific Materialists who have questioned the ability of the Neo-Darwinian paradigm to contain the evidence are treated as heretics these days, so any IDer is bound to get run out on a rail (as happened recently at the Smithsonian).

[Oh, and having posted this, you will soon also get the chance to hear from others why this is all ridiculous. I'll save them at least a little time; the reason I believe all of this is because I am an intolerant, fanatical idiot, who has fallen from his previously enlightened understanding of the ultimate pointlessness of existence into silly and childish superstition. Cue the Spaghetti monster, Doonesbury cartoons, etc.]

- SEAGOON

[Leslie]

I don't think it's ridiculous Seagoon.   Quite the opposite.  I believe the best scientists innately understand God created all things, and work with the idea of knowing that there are many things in the Universe which man has no answer for, and which are beyond our ken.  It is the mystery and acceptance of God's existence which inspires effort to try to find the answers (perhaps within reach, perhaps not), and in that process sometimes a discovery is made which may have nothing to do with the original research.  This might be called a "happy mistake" or could even be solved by a dream.

It is not a coincidence that artists and creative people can be and often are excellent scientists if they join that field, but scientists rarely make good artists when they try their hand at it.  I'm not sure why this is, but just about every artist I know is either religious or attributes their skills as a gift from God.  Try this and ask an artist sometime and see what they say.  Not all but I bet most would give much spiritual credence as a reason why they do what they do.  This involves devotion and hard work without much worldly reward or recognition.  Why continue if not for a sense of purpose?  Because it is a search for meaning and truth...to make some sense of this world.

As for any who call it ridiculous.  Seagoon, I wouldn't worry about that too much because it's not ridiculous at all.  In any event, a serious scientific think tank would steer clear of saying that to someone's idea, or even remotely imply it in any form or fashion.





Les

[-tronski-]

I'm just glad scientology is the only true religion and all this discussion is mute...

 Tronsky

[lada]

Originally posted by Leslie
I don't think it's ridiculous Seagoon.   Quite the opposite.  I believe the best scientists innately understand God created all things, and work with the idea of knowing that there are many things in the Universe which man has no answer for, and which are beyond our ken.  

ummm .... few hundred years ago, God let his "good" followers to burn people because they said, that there is no heaven in the sky, but there is a space with planets and stars.

Today, when sience beated all those stupid fanatics, and their list of mistries is getting smaller and smaller an the earth, they will teach us about Gods secrets in the space.

ummmm.... religion is easies form how to spoil people and all religion leaders realize it very well.

Since the start most of the religion have same goal.
Spread, and control as much power and resources as possible.


word God.... is excuse for most bloody  killers of all times.

its so easy to imagine nothing after death. Just try it and get used to feeling of non existence.

anyway greeting from Kermanshah