Lazer Buff guns

[Flit]

Don't ***** Morph, it could be worse.
  I remember when you could adust the convergence on the buffs.. it was much worse(or better depending on which end your looking from) then.

[Morpheus]

yup, back then it was worse. I remember that as well. IMO though when HT moved the convergence into 600 and locked it, he should opened up the hit pattern. For them all to hit at the exact same spot at 600yrds... It's just not even close to being historically accurrate. While we retain historical accruacy for fighters, we toss it out the window with bombers...

[Saxman]

I'd have to disagree about the field ack, there. Many's the time I've been screaming across a field at 400+ mph (at a good 1000-2000ft altitude at that!) and all the sudden *ping!* *boom!* and I find it was the ack what got me.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

It would be enough probably to stop buffs from shooting through the fuselage and limit fire to the positions which had any chance of seeing you in real life.

That way one could attack a buff formation hiding behind the fuselage of the furthest plane and receive only one set of guns. Anyway if we would man all the buff guns as was the situation in real life, there'd be many many passes where half of the gunners would not see the attacker before it was too late. Now if one position can lock to the enemy, they all lock on it.

Also shooting down your own drones by accident should be enabled and modeled.

[Bruno]

A lot of stuff posted in this thread is incorrect. First, I will say bomber guns and bomb aiming in AH is stupid, but that's a game play decision that they made at HTC.

Anyway, bomber guns don't 'converge' to a single aim point. You can test this off line by flying level, heading due south and using the .target 600 command. First do a single bomber and will see a large cone of fire coming from only those gun that have a line at the aim point (no gun will fire through the fuselage; when you see this in game this is an FE / lag issue). Move the turret around and you will see some guns stop firing when they have no line on the aim point. Then try it in formation. Just fire the tail gun from the center bomber and will see the impact on the target of all three bombers, they don't 'converge' to single aim point.

Here's an image I just did:



The inner most ring on the target is 20 ft each following ring is spaced at 10 feet. Each gun position on the AH B-17 has a dispersion of about 20 ft.  As you can see in the image there's a 20-25 ft space between the impact points.

Taken from this book:

Gunner:- An Illustrated History of World War II Aircraft Turrets and Gun Positions

ISBN 1 84037 304 0

By Donald Nijboer

are the results of bomber guns tested on the ground (bomber parked on the ground engines off):

Testing done by the USAAF found that the bullet pattern from a B-17 during ground testing had the following results for 12 rounds to 600yds:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 21' - 11.7mils
chin turret > dia. 23' - 12.6 mils
waist(closed) dia. 26' - 14.3mils
side nose > dia. 34' - 18.7mils
tail turret > dia 45' - 25mils (yup that is right 45 FEET)

For the B-24 it was:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 20' - 11.2mils
nose turret > dia. 23' - 12.9mils (Emerson)
nose turret > dia. 35' - 19.3mils (Motor Prod.)
waist(closed) dia. 23' - 12.9mils
waist(open) dia. 63' - 35.6mils
tail turret > dia 35' - 19.3mils

As you can see, with the exception of the ball turret on the B-17 most of the bomber guns in AH have a tighter dispersion pattern which means they can get many more rounds on target (as long as they aim reasonably well) then in real  life. For example the 190 has a wingspan of about 35ft.

Now add to the fact that the bombers are the most stable gun platform in the game (no vibration or gun shake) and it's easy to keep the attacker sited in. It's impossible to get in a blind spot or attack unseen (external view and icons) unless the pilot is asleep or AFK. Also, the bullets aren't affected by the slip stream (they neither rise nor fall etc...). It also appears that AHs damage values are dependent upon impact velocity (when closing on a bomber from the rear you fly into his rounds and thus they 'hit harder') and these are the reason for the 'lethality' of the AH bomber gunners.

It has little to do with dispersion, guns firing through the fuselage etc...

A long while back Urchin spent several days in the DA with friends testing this stuff. If any of you care you might search for his old posts.

But make no mistake about it, bombers in AH have always been dweeb magnets. Bomber gunners have always been lethal yet when you see a bomber in the main you see 10 guys rushing after it. For me I usually ignore them, then are no fun and boring. I asked a long time ago, 'what is the point in having bombers if the only way folks will fly them is if have to dumb them down to ridiculous levels'?

But some people base their whole subscription on playing ack star...

YMMV

[Bruno]

One note on that image I posted. That was taken while in flight. What this mean is the target is being 'dragged' behind the bombers to maintain 600 yards, as such the rounds coming from the tail gun aren't 'traveling' a full 600 yards. This may skew the dispersion of the individual gun some what. They would be slightly wider if I did the test on the ground while stationary. This would also mean that the hit points on the 3 bomners would be closer but it shouldn't be more then a few feet.

[Bruno]

I was incorrect in saying that 'bomber guns don't converge to a single aim point'.

Convergence for the tail guns on the 3 Bomber formations is about 500 yards (=/- 20 yards). At this point the cone fire from the tail guns is about 10 ft or so from the 3 bomber formation.

at 400 the gap is wide, about 25 ft between the 3.

at 600 the bullet streams cross and the gap is about 25ft as well.

Thanks to an ex-squaddie for the pm letting me know...

[Oleg]

Originally posted by Morpheus
While we retain historical accruacy for fighters, we toss it out the window with bombers...

Fighter guns accuracy is not even close to historical. Typical hit percent was ~1-2, typical range ~100-200m. In AH we can shot down enemy from 600m and have ~10% hit rate.

Leave buffs alone, they are easy meat.

[gatt]

Originally posted by Bruno
(snip) ... bombers in AH have always been dweeb magnets. Bomber gunners have always been lethal yet when you see a bomber in the main you see 10 guys rushing after it. For me I usually ignore them, then are no fun and boring. I asked a long time ago, 'what is the point in having bombers if the only way folks will fly them is if have to dumb them down to ridiculous levels'? But some people base their whole subscription on playing ack star...

Only low flying bombers (i.e.: pork the fields, frag the rwys and die) and low ack-stars are actually bullet/dweeb magnets. This is connected to the low level furball attitude present in the Main. Seldom I see fighters climbing, positioning and attacking medium-high alt buffs: it requires patience and skills. Moreover, gunners lethality and buff FM make it even harder.

Many times I see buff formations flying just 5-10K above furballing enemy fighters and no one taking a look at them ... no, wait, fighter pilots then complain about the destruction of their fighter hangars or ammo/fuel depots! Being a fighter pilot should mean sweeping, capping fields and HQs against buffs as well. Check the stats of many AH stars and vocal players and you'll find that only 5% of their kills are buffs, and much less are tough buffs like B-24s and B-17s.
 
However, there are not only low level ack-stars. Due to the laser gunnery and UFO FM at high altitude, some pilots play high alt (unloaded) ackstars just to attract enemy fighters and then kill them more easily. Leave heavies as they are now and the TOD and even mid-late war AvA arenas will be a huge disappointment for many players.

[Morpheus]

Hey bruno, what else other than the convergence being 500 and not 600 was wrong big guy?

[Morpheus]

Now add to the fact that the bombers are the most stable gun platform in the game (no vibration or gun shake) and it's easy to keep the attacker sited in. It's impossible to get in a blind spot or attack unseen (external view and icons) unless the pilot is asleep or AFK. Also, the bullets aren't affected by the slip stream (they neither rise nor fall etc...). It also appears that AHs damage values are dependent upon impact velocity (when closing on a bomber from the rear you fly into his rounds and thus they 'hit harder') and these are the reason for the 'lethality' of the AH bomber gunners.

Am I missing something? Didn't I say this 2 to 3 times already?

(no gun will fire through the fuselage; when you see this in game this is an FE / lag issue).

Again, you are misunderstanding me. Shoot from your number 1 plane at your number 2 or 3 plane. The bullets from your number 1 plane go right through. Notice I said drones when I made mention of the bullets going through the bombers.

But some people base their whole subscription on playing ack star...

Which is why 99999999,0002 is raising holly hell.

Again, like I said. Bombers are a joke. CT being based around bombers for a large part... Should be interesting.

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by gatt
Many times I see buff formations flying just 5-10K above furballing enemy fighters and no one taking a look at them ... no, wait, fighter pilots then complain about the destruction of their fighter hangars or ammo/fuel depots! Being a fighter pilot should mean sweeping, capping fields and HQs against buffs as well. Check the stats of many AH stars and vocal players and you'll find that only 5% of their kills are buffs, and much less are tough buffs like B-24s and B-17s.
 
 

Exactly gatt

Weird indeed. I am prolly the worst of the bunch replying to this thread as far as being a fighter pilot is concerned.
I have no trouble staying out of buffs guns while commencing to destroy all 3 of them. Its a matter of patience really, but if we talking about trying to kill the bombers after they are within 5 miles of our Airbase or target?
That’s a horse of a different color indeed. If so then this is would just poor base defense, common but poor. If we were as eager to do longer ranging sweeps for bombers as we are to wait hovering over our own bases for those heavy laden JOBO's for the easy kill, the bomber problems would be solved. With the current Buff setup, i think HT has found the best possible happy medium to keep the bombers out of the hanger and in our gun sights. (remembers when the fully calibration sight was introduced and the bomber flights diminished to all time lows.) It was sad not to see bombers in the AH skies kind weird not to see bombers in a WWII setting.
However, if we were to have fully manable gun positions in our bombers, I think the situation would change dramatically. First the defense of the bomber or bomber formation would be fully dependant on the ability of each and every gunner/player onboard. Secondly I think the enjoyment of the interactivity of the players onboard the ship would make up for the now less accurate gunnery that would result from making AI now HI.
I believe this would be a change for the better.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by RTSigma
The problem is that back then, if you were shot down, you were dead, or captured, or hurt. Here in AH2, you get experience even after you die. The more you kill someone, the more they learn.

 

I've seen this line of reasoning used alot here And to a certain extent its a valid point.
But IRL they had two things we dont have here.
Professional training
The added incentive that is gained by knowing if you miss, you may die

A threat to ones life IRL is an amazing motivator.

That being said. the gunnery is probably too easy.
As I know it is with the AA guns on the ships.

Not to get too far off topic but it is relevant as to the ease of gunnery here and is one interesting story

My father in law who was a gunner on a cruiser in WWII almost laughed when he saw the ships gunnery here. His exact words were and I quote.

"Jeeessus Chrisst, If the )@*)@ g= AA guns were that _@*)$@ easy back then not a single M)($)%^*#!@ Jap plane would have gotten through and Mac would still be alive."

"Mac" From what I've been able to peice together from the bits and chunks of stories he's told me was a buddy of his with whom for whatever reason he switched places with during a Jap attack in 44.

I say "from the bits and peices" because he has never been able to tell the complete story to me all at once and be able to finish it.
During the most complete version he manages to get out he completely zoned out for about 10 minutes.

Abriviated it goes something like this

"This one day Mac and I decided we were gonna change places when the call came out that there were jap planes comming so we ran to our guns see, and we could see em comming in and this one )(#&*$# Jap was comming right at us like this (holding his hand at about a 15 degree angle) and we're trying to blast the hell out of his but this )()(#(*$#  just keeps coming like this and...and...and.."

At this point this tough as nails crusty old man completely zones out. and I mean COMPLETELY zones out and he just keeps saying "and..and" while loooking out into the distance and tears rolling down his face.
 I was dumbfounded for a moment. Then I realised he was reliving the entire experiance over again.
So Im like "poppop its ok, you can talk about it another time" but he just keeps looking into the distance and saying "and...and" the whole time. And I keep saying "Poppop while gently shaking him but nothing doing, he's completely locked in another place and time.

Like I said. this went on for like 10 minutes before finally he lowered his hands looked at me wiping the tears from his eyes and said "and the next day we (raising both hands in the air) "Whoosh, dumped em overboard and buried him at sea"

"Damn nice guy too. Just found out he had a kid two days before. And if we hadnt changed places that one day. they would have buried me instead of him"

Its ok popop

[tatertot]

1st, let me start off by saying i havent read all of this thread nor do i care to
2nd)and this is to you Morph,im going to take a different appraoch to this away from my counter part 999000

and im sorry if im repeating anything (see above)


Morph i agree with all guns pointing in the same direction it is easy to land 5 or more kills buffs do have that advantage in the ma,but in tod im sure ht will fix this issue(and i havnt read anything about tod just what i have heard)this has been a issue to many for years am i right???if tod is a setup were after certian critiria you get rank they have to either make buff guns harder to man ,less deadly or a various of other ideas or they will not work with tod noone will attack them i wouldnt!!!you know as well as i do this is a thorn to everyone ijn the ma.

as far as fish in a barrell i cant agree maybe bobing for apples but i personaly cant pick 5to7 off bomb and land never could 9 can and i think he ch@@ts anyway
 upping from a capped base yes this is easy enough kis up fast enough now heres a question i have does dropping your eggs actualy help????
 anyway just my 2 cents not worth a plug nickle i know but htc wont let this effect tod imo    

[zarkov]

I think Buffs are fairly killable now but...once you start getting massed formations of them, they'll pretty much become unkillable regardless of how you attack them because of the firepower they can throw out.

Having Buffs being permitted to shoot through drones is BS - if anything, prevent this or...[insert evil laugh] make their gunfire hit their drone (bwahahahaha!!!!).