Lazer Buff guns

[Morpheus]

heres a question i have does dropping your eggs actualy help????

Only reason you drop eggs before you roll at a vulched field is so you can lose alot of weight and get off the ground sooner so your guns will fire.

[zarkov]

The problem is that AH must strike a golden balance between gameplay and realism if it wants to be commercially successful.

With a fighter, you can jump into the cockpit and fly it and IMMEDIATELY start "having fun", i.e. going out and shooting stuff down.

However, if things were "realistic", if you were to climb into a bomber and attempt to fly it IMMEDIATELY and start "having fun", i.e. blowing stuff up on the ground, you would get killed.  First of all, you'd get swarmed by fighters and killed - there was a reason why escort fighters were needed in WWII.  And if you didn't fly at a reasonably high altitude, you'd get killed by flak - there was a reason why the only low level bomber attacks in WWII were either for special operations or in areas where the flak density was pretty low.

What this means is that if things are made "realistic" for bombers, a bomber pilot cannot IMMEDIATELY have fun.  He'll have to organize a bunch of other bomber pilots together so they can fly in close formation and provide each other with mutual gunner support.  He'll have to organize a bunch of fighter pilots to CAP ahead or provide escort.  He'll also have to have the guys climb up to a high enough altitude to avoid getting killed by flak.  All this translates into more of a barrier to having fun immediately for a guy who wants to fly a bomber.

Which is probably why things are the way they are with bombers right now.

If they made things "realistic", most of the action would be furballing because noone would want to fly bombers and HT would probably lose customers who are interested in flying bombers since for them to have fun, they would have to spend a lot of time actually planning out their raid.

[999000]

Gatt states......."Check the stats of many AH stars and vocal players and you'll find that only 5% of their kills are buffs, and much less are tough buffs like B-24s and B-17s."   Gatt good work!
Morpheous good to see you attacking the person AGAIN when your premise doesn't hold up to FACT....wondering if you are one of the vocal players Gatt is talking about!........SERIOUSLY I  Can't remember the last time you ever even attacked my bombers????
999000

[Morpheus]

When would one need to attack your bombers when you suicide them into a hot feild or into the side of a CV?

[dedalos]

Originally posted by 999000
Gatt states......."Check the stats of many AH stars and vocal players and you'll find that only 5% of their kills are buffs, and much less are tough buffs like B-24s and B-17s."   Gatt good work!
999000

Hey ### dude.  You remember me right?  Thats all I used to do.  Attack bombers and if I knew you guys were in the area, I kept comming.  If you check my stats now you will see that I dont do that anymore.  Many reasons for it but I'll list a few:

1) Plane selection.  If I am in a Tyffy or LA7, I'll go after the buffs.  If in a Yak or p40, Ki84 Spit, I run away.  It is suaside and a waste of ammo.

2) Ammo.  Even if I manage to get the kills, I will have to RTB ammo.  Meaning, 10 mins to get to alt, 30 secs of making passes at the buffs, 10 mins rtb if I survive.  I find that borring.

3) It is boring.  I dont mean that in a bad way towards the buff drivers but look at it from a fighters perspective.  If the buff driver is new, it is an easy kill of the buffs with a fighter damaged enough not to be able to fight (have fun).  If the buff driver is a vet, it is insta death.

4) I get pissed when LANCs take my wins off from 1.5K out.  I dont know about you, but I think that is not right.

Bottom line, I choose not to attack buffs now.  Maybe some of the vocal guys do the same too.  Why waste your time when you know the outcome of the fight?  So, instead, I'll go after the closest fighter.  No knowledge of the outcome there and if I survive, there is ammo to continue the fighting with other fighters.

[AutoPilot]

When i fly in the Main Arena i usually grab my Fw190 and head up to an altitude of 25-K + looking for bomber formations.When i attack them i expect too get shot down,if not then i shoot them down and go looking for more.A real bonus is when i run into another person from a different country that's doing the same thing and a fight ensues at 20-K plus.

Really is upping empty bombers the only way to break a cap on the field?

[tatertot]

its probaly not the only way to bust a cap but it sure is the easiest until ords get porked and btew that is the next thing i would do after vh considering how many people have starting to up buffs at a capped field.



dedalos i can respect that you do not attack buffs like you used to ( you going to buffsaa btw)  
 
 this is all the same whine grip or discussion,realism in the ma can never be acomplished to full ww2 affect.YOU HAVE TO MANY AS YOU WOULD SAY GLITCHS IN THERE in real life would you vulch a field for a half hour or how about spawn camp???  these are things im sure tod or whatever it finaly will be called will take away (as i should).




BTW FOOFY I NEED SOME TRAINING IN THE DA IF YOU WOULD PLEASE



                                     

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Might not be the only one, but sure is the easyest and quickest one.

Not to mention the L-word.

[tatertot]

last thing mORPH how do you suppose they could fix this issue and im being serious  pleas dont take it as a spike id really like to now should A buff pilot only control 1  buff or maybe the answer is as you guys have said in air warrior death stars maybe  alot of guys in one buff.




id like to see in this tod like the weds snapshot you start at a certain alt i dont think it matters if one cant climb to altitude or not.Just that they can actualy bomb with the cal set up

[dedalos]

Originally posted by tatertot

dedalos i can respect that you do not attack buffs like you used to ( you going to buffsaa btw)  
 
 this is all the same whine grip or discussion,realism in the ma can never be acomplished to full ww2 affect.YOU HAVE TO MANY AS YOU WOULD SAY GLITCHS IN THERE in real life would you vulch a field for a half hour or how about spawn camp???  these are things im sure tod or whatever it finaly will be called will take away (as i should).

Just say when foo.  

As far the buffs go, in my case atlist, it has nothing to do with reality cept the 1.5K thing.  I don't vulch or spawn camp either cause that is boring as well.  All I am saing is, why bother attacking a buff in a p40, yak, even Ki84 and spit when you know the outcome.  There is no guessing there.

Now if I happen to have the alt and the firepower, I will come in for a pass or two.  The only time I ever had some success against you guys was when I had a few K alt 30mms and you were shooting at something else.  30mms are hard to come by in our days and so does alt since chances are I found a fighter before the buffs and the first thing that happens is dive for the deck

[JB28]

I'm with you Morph!  guns on bombers are not realistic.  it won't be long before people do start flying bomber formations into furballs.  hell, 3 bomber formations grouped up could wipe out the entire group of nme fighters.  even if all the fighters focused on the bombers (which they couldn't cause they are engaged w/fighters), about the best they could hope for is to knock down 4 out of the 9 planes.  Good bomber pilots will just keep a tight formation and continue on.  

<>

that is all......smoke'm if you got'em

[SirLoin]

Ya but if buffs didn't have uber guns you would see much less of them.

I like working formations..if u dont get shot u get 2 to 3 kills.

Gameplay over realism imho.

[tatertot]

jb 28 at the risk of killing my rep i already do that !!!!! but i still agree its cheezy

[soupcan]

gotta disagree
there are plenty of fighter pilots in MA
who regularly wipe out everyone of my buffs
and fly off unscathed
they can do this because they have mastered
the art of attacking buffs in this game

in WW2 the germans learned very quickly
that american heavy bombers were a force to be reckoned
with and had to change their tatics

while your busy complaining to HT to reduce the effectiveness of buff guns
please add that the bombers should have an "auto-corkscrew" manuver
so guns can be manned without plane going into auto-level
"gerry's on our 6 captain!"
"no worries mate ill set the trim so we go straight and level"

[Simaril]

I'm not sure I'd agree that there's that big of a problem.

First, as to being "overpowered." In the December tour, look at the kills per deaths for level bombers. I rounded to the nearest thousand, checking model vs all countries.

Kills: 29,000
Deaths: 78,000

That's a KPD of 0.37. This means that level bombers did slightly worse than the Hurri2D (the one with 40mm) and a bit better than the C.202. Would you want to weaken the attacking power of either of those rides?

IN the MA world, buffs are FUNCTIONALLY very weak. Yes, a skilled pilot and gunner will own 95% of solo attackers -- but there are very few with those skills who fly buffs a lot. If I take pings at extreme ranges, I will only make VERY safe runs -- and will consider just looking for safer meat to hunt.

Watch the typical MA attack on buffs. 90% will climb slowly up to the buffs and attack from the 6 position, with very little E. Even when attackers start with extra alt, they almost always dive onto the 6, fly over the top, pull back, and park on the 6 again. When I'm setting up an attack, I really dont mind if someone else attacks first -- because almost every time, the attacker just pulls up behind and hacks away at the bomber.


Blaming the MA buff model is no different than blaming the unperked LA7. Either way, its not that hard to beat if you do it right -- and either way, a good pilot driving the bird is plain scary. But, most La7 pilots are inexperienced, and most buff drivers are killable.




Now as to the realism argument: In real life, a single fighter attacking a bomber foramtion --even 3 buffs -- had to be careful. The lowly Betty was lethal when first encountered, because pilots came up the six -- and were shredded. Once the real life pilots saw the dangers, and learned smarted attacks, they could take them apart.  In europe, if the buffs were as vulnerable as it sounds in this thread, why'd the luftwaffe even bother to go to head on attacks? Why not just park on the 6 and shred the buffs?

In the MA, this situation is replicated. If you attack them wrong, you die. If you attack them right, you dont -- they do. In the MA, people CAN learn, but they usually dont. The same guys keep coming with essentially high risk profiles, outof impatience or bloodlust or whatever. The net effect of relevant factors (newbs in buffs, gun characteristics, altittudes, etc) shows that 2.7 bombers die for every fighter they kill.

Period.

I'm no ace, but I kill a lot of buffs. I'm 44:3 this tour, and each of the 3 deaths happened NOT when I got hammered by a screwed up buff model but when I got impatient and abandoned the secure attack profile. That's the way it should be if AH is trying to reproduce the FEEL of attacking buffs.

And as to CT The decisions HT has made, over literally years of experience, have resulted in a situation where A)people will fly buffs; B) teh buffs die a lot; C) the buffs kill if you screw up but die if you dont.

Consider the ppossibility that HT, with his experience and game design understanding, might make different decisions in this very different design situation.

Basically, calm down. I'll bet he'll give us the same result in CT that we have here: dangerous but doable, and likely to succeed if you're smart and do it right. Again, if you do it wrong, I'll bet you'll be skewered in CT.

But it wont be HT's fault.