Author Topic: FoMoCo crash and burn (Read 1969 times)

Toad · « **Reply #45 on:** January 23, 2006, 04:30:10 PM »

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Originally posted by LePaul
Dude, as you guys have pointed out...management and union thinking have collided to crush a manufacturing giant.

Not really. I don't think there is ANYTHING that either managment or labor could do to compete directly with the Chinese. At this point in time, no American or Canadian autoworker can afford to work for $500/month pay and benefits.

Ford is shutting down North American plants. Production will pick up in lower cost overseas plants. Unless UAW can match those labor costs, the work is leaving North America.

Would you work for $500/month pay and bennies LP?

Nope. There you are. The whole explanation right there.

Skuzzy · « **Reply #46 on:** January 23, 2006, 04:33:37 PM »

Of course, companies which move thier workforce offshore for short term gains (and they are only short term), are effectively killing themselves off.

Put enough Americans out of work and who will be able to buy the cars? That is why it is short term gain. Long term, they are killing the consumer who would buy the product.

Toad · « **Reply #47 on:** January 23, 2006, 04:36:41 PM »

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Originally posted by Skuzzy
I do not see greed from the union, causing less greed from upper management or vice-versa. I am not sure why you consider this a 'checks and balances' scheme/approach.

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There is one "pie" at any company. Most management will attempt to eat the whole pie if it possibly can. The Union will attempt to eat the whole pie if it can. The gobbling and counter-gobbling is a type of check and balance. You can't eat what the other guy just ate.

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You cannot get a job in some states without being part of a union (New York for example).

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You're saying EVERY worker in NY state is Union? C'mon, Skuzzy... I know better.

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Uhmm,..the people I have dealt with in unions cannot leave a job without an immediate replacement being available. In some cases that immediate replacement is told to leave one employer for another. Something to do with negation of attrition.

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Was this some vital governmental operation? Where else in America are you incapable of saying "I quit" and leaving? Example, please.

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What do you mean by 'no-thing'. I am not part of a union. Why is this a bad thing? What would a union do for me, that I cannot do myself?

"No-thing" is "nothing". I didn't say a Union is a "good thing", I said it is better than "no thing" or "nothing". My experiences in aviation clearly showed that without a Union, safety is not always the FIRST priority as it must be. Non-union airlines routinely push pilots, planes and mechanics to do things that would scare a fearless man. I have little doubt other industries are any different except in degree of danger.

Toad · « **Reply #48 on:** January 23, 2006, 04:38:44 PM »

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Originally posted by Skuzzy
We ended up being up until 4:00am due to the idiotic rules and regulations of a union and being in a state where nothing can happen without the proper union person doing it. This is not condusive to getting things done.

Yep, things like that happen when the pendulum gets pushed too far one way.

Or the other.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #49 on:** January 23, 2006, 04:42:11 PM »

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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Ikeprof brought up a good point as well. People not being allowed to do things as it is not 'part of their job'.

When I worked for Tandy, we use to do our annual new product announcements in New York. I was always there. One year, we had a very large show to do. The truck carrying all our display items had problems and got there late.
I started to open the truck, and was stopped by the hotel manager. He told me it was illegal for us to open the truck. We would have to wait until the union workers got there so they could do it.

Well, we waited, and waited. Finally, they show up. Thye open the back of the truck, then took a 30 minute break. After the break, they start unloading the truck one item at a time. Union regulations prevented them from moving more than one at a time. Every 45 minutes, they took a 15 minute break. No matter where they were, no matter what they were doing, they just stopped. Like automatons.

We ended up being up until 4:00am due to the idiotic rules and regulations of a union and being in a state where nothing can happen without the proper union person doing it. This is not condusive to getting things done.

I have heard the same stories from our marketing people. They all hated having to deal lazy union people at the shows in NY.

Skuzzy · « **Reply #50 on:** January 23, 2006, 04:45:34 PM »

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Originally posted by Toad
There is one "pie" at any company. Most management will attempt to eat the whole pie if it possibly can. The Union will attempt to eat the whole pie if it can. The gobbling and counter-gobbling is a type of check and balance. You can't eat what the other guy just ate.

I have always viewed a checks and balances system as an effort to contain/control the negative aspect of the endeavor. Seems to me, the union and the upper management are in a race to see who can consume the pie the fastest. There is nothing to prevent it. If unions are suppsed to be the 'check' which prevents greed from running amok in upper management, I pronounce the exercise a dismal failure.

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You're saying EVERY worker in NY state is Union? C'mon, Skuzzy... I know better.

I do not live there. I am only going on what I was told and experienced. I am sure there are some native New Yorkers on the board who can respond with more precision.
I do know there are states which have 'right to work' and there are states who do not have 'right to work'. I know 'right to work' only allows (in theory) a person to work in a job inter-mixed with union and vice-versa.

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Was this some vital governmental operation? Where else in America are you incapable of saying "I quit" and leaving? Example, please.

It was some contruction sites. Apparently the union had to have X number of people on site daily. People could only quit if they had a replacement or it would cost the union money.

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"No-thing" is "nothing". I didn't say a Union is a "good thing", I said it is better than "no thing" or "nothing". My experiences in aviation clearly showed that without a Union, safety is not always the FIRST priority as it must be. Non-union airlines routinely push pilots, planes and mechanics to do things that would scare a fearless man. I have little doubt other industries are any different except in degree of danger.

If I was overhauling an engine for a plane and was told to short-cut the overhual, I wouldn't. I do not need a union for that.
If the company fired me, I would go public and garner a nice settlement. I do not see where a union is needed in this situation at all.

LePaul · « **Reply #51 on:** January 23, 2006, 04:46:42 PM »

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Originally posted by Toad

Would you work for $500/month pay and bennies LP?

Nope. There you are. The whole explanation right there.

Are you trying to outshine Airhead in the concept that the Unions can do no wrong?

Whose asking these guys to take such cuts? Hell they dont want ANY cuts. We should give them MORE just for having the gall to show up!

Your so lost in your pro-union-at-all-cost argument that you've lost your perspective on ths situation.

Toad · « **Reply #52 on:** January 23, 2006, 04:47:17 PM »

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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Put enough Americans out of work and who will be able to buy the cars? That is why it is short term gain. Long term, they are killing the consumer who would buy the product.

Ah HA!

Killing the Golden Goose. Or, biblically,

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Deuteronomy 25:4

Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

They are killing the North American consumer who would buy the product.

As this evolves, huge new populations of consumers will be created as wealth is transferred to the developing countries. North American consumers fade as Chinese consumers step into the spotlight.

It happened when Great Britain industrialized. It happened in the US and Canada when we industrialized. It happened in Japan post-WW2. It will happen in China. It's historically consistent. It doesn't happen overnight but the cycle grows shorter each time.

Toad · « **Reply #53 on:** January 23, 2006, 04:54:52 PM »

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Originally posted by LePaul
Whose asking these guys to take such cuts?

Don't be fatuous.

If you step back and take the long view, you will understand that we, as a nation, cannot compete with another nation where the people are eager to work for 10% of our wages.

It really has nothing to do with Unions or no Unions. It has to do with competition against people who will joyfully work for 10% of your wage.

And again, if you actually read what I said, I'm not pro-Union. I'm just pointing out they do have their place now and then.

Skuzzy · « **Reply #54 on:** January 23, 2006, 04:55:14 PM »

Ok, Toad, let's just put an end to this union thing between ourselves. Nothing worse than two intelligent people beating their heads against different sides of the same wall.

You have a very different perspective than I do about unions. I guess you see something positive in them, while every contact I have had with union has been negative.

In light of that, I really cannot see us having a meeting of the minds. Further disussion would be rather predictable and pointless, from me, or you.

Let's agree to disagree, shall we?

Skuzzy · « **Reply #55 on:** January 23, 2006, 04:56:23 PM »

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Originally posted by Toad
Don't be fatuous.

If you step back and take the long view, you will understand that we, as a nation, cannot compete with another nation where the people are eager to work for 10% of our wages.

It really has nothing to do with Unions or no Unions. It has to do with competition against people who will joyfully work for 10% of your wage.

I do agree with that.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #56 on:** January 23, 2006, 04:57:27 PM »

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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Ok, Toaad, let's just put an end to this union thing.

You have a very different perspective than I do about unions. I guess you see something positive in them, while every contact I have had with union has been negative.

In light of that, I really cannot see us having a meeting of the minds. Further disussion would be rather predictable and pointless, from me, or you.

Let's agree to disagree, shall we?

Whats the fun in that!!

This is the O'club no argument can end in a nice way here, you need to flame each other with personal insults and then have some random MP close it!

Ripsnort · « **Reply #57 on:** January 23, 2006, 05:00:16 PM »

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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Between the greed of unions and upper management, companies have no chance. Being squeezed from the bottom and the top will eventually make the ballon pop.

Exactly. Ours is a culture of ME ME ME!:(

Skuzzy · « **Reply #58 on:** January 23, 2006, 05:02:24 PM »

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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Whats the fun in that!!

This is the O'club no argument can end in a nice way here, you need to flame each other with personal insults and then have some random MP close it!

I do not have to agree with Toad's position and he does not have to agree with mine, but I like to think we respect each other enough to note how we feel about something, then move on.

Besides, I dunt need an MP to help me out.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #59 on:** January 23, 2006, 05:07:10 PM »

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Originally posted by Skuzzy
I do not have to agree with Toad's position and he does not have to agree with mine, but I like to think we respect each other enough to note how we feel about something, then move on.

Besides, I dunt need an MP to help me out.

yes yes yes... blah blah...

I don't see any flames!?!

On a side note. Toad is a great guy, I can not say anything bad about the guy who sent me all those awsome BBQ rubs!
If two people can be sure to keep it adult on this forum it is you two.