History of Palestine?

[storch]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
moot.  Mimes are mute.

no they aren't, but their pantomime is

[Gunslinger]

I allways get a kick out of these signs:

[Thrawn]

So what?  Just tell the Palestinians that they and their land doesn't exit, problems solved.

Originally posted by lasersailor184
However, jews have always been in Israel.  They might not have had self own of the land around them, but they've always been there.

Nah, Canaanites were there before the Isrealies.

[Big G]

Reminds me of the original people of the North american continent.
They no longer live as a nation, a new race of people and a new country took them over........

[Seagoon]

Hi All,

A minor point that doesn't seem to have been made. The Arabs who identify themselves as "Palestinians" are not descendents of the Canaanites. The Canaanites themselves were a mixed bag of races, and most of them were settlers in the region as well. For instance the infamous Philistines from which we get the name Palestine were Phoenecian colonists who seized the coastlands and the great cities of Gaza, Ekron, Ashkelon, Ashdod and Gath from the Amorites. These Canaanite nations were in turn replaced themselves.

The history of Arab settlement in the area dates back to 636 AD. Up until that time the area had been controlled by the Byzantines (the Eastern successors of the Romans) and was considered a Christian area. The Byzantines however had been much weakened by constant fighting with the Persian Empire to East (which at that time was Zoroastrian). All of that changed when the Arab armies of the Jihad (or Fatah an Arabic word meaning the conquest or reclaiming of land and its permanent addition to the Dar-El-Islam) came boiling out of the Arabian Peninsula under the direction of Caliph Umar and his brilliant general Kahlid Ibn Al Walid. These armies of Jihad won a great victory over the Byzantines in the Golan Heights at a place the Arabs call Yarmuk. No single battle has more importance in Islamic history, for it marked the point at which Islam became an unstoppable force in the Middle East. Within a few years the Dar-El-Islam included the Persian empire, the Arabian Peninsula, and North Africa. It continued to expand relentlessly until the tide was reversed in the 15 and 16th centuries.

The claim of the Palestinians therefore lies in an idea that is religious rather than tribal or nationalistic and is clearly expressed in the charter of Hamas. Namely, that the area itself is an Islamic Waqf, literally land set aside or "consecrated" for Muslims until judgment day. Once an area or inheritance is declared "Waqf" it is irreversible it can never again revert and any attempt to do so is considered intollerable and there is an obligation upon all Muslims to fight to restore a stolen Waqf.

From the Hamas Charter: "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it."

Hence, until the land is returned to Islamic rule, there can be no peace in the region. The critical issue is not really over whether the land is Palestinian, but is it a Waqf? Clearly the vast majority of the Arabs in the region believe that to be the case and under those circumstances, peace is impossible until and unless the Jewish nation ceases to exist.

- SEAGOON

[lasersailor184]

When I say always, I mean in comparison to everyone else.

Anyway, It's not like a whole ****load of jews suddenly show up in Israel in 1946 after the war.  The zionist movement had majorly kicked in around 1900 when jews started moving into Israel in larger and larger numbers.  It was only the UN mandate that made it official.

[ROC]

Yanno, sometimes you guys just suprise me.

Just when I have had my fill of "I'm teh Wootness of teh L33T" you go and start a thread that is a very well thought out discussion on multiple viewpoints.


No racist, moronic digs, no short sighted sound bite biased repetition, just a good solid discussion.

I had to log back in to make sure I was at the right website

[straffo]

Originally posted by weaselsan
Let me say it s-l-o-w-l-y maybe the logic will s-l-o-w-l-y sink in.
 
There... has... never... been..a...people... called... the.. Palestinian People.
it..was...made...up...by...an ....Egyptian...named...Yassar Arafat.

I don't negate this I just expose your lack of logic.

look at your predicate :

1. there has never been a "Palestinian People"

2.There has never been a "Palestinian Government"

Don't you see something wrong ?

btw a good lecture (for a start) would be this article : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_Logic

[straffo]

Give California the Palestinian.


Problem solved.

[Nashwan]

That said, I don't understand the whole reason Israel is in the area.

Why weren't they given part of Germany as war reparations instead of where they are now?

Because the Zionist movement was not a response to Nazi genocide, it was a response to earlier European anti Semitism. As such, by 1945 there was already substantial momentum behind a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

How can they lay claim to the area they currently reside,

Needs must. The Jews needed a homeland. Because of the historical links, the only realistic option was Palestine.

It's tough on the Palestinians, of course, and what the last 50 years have proved is that the Palestinians also need a homeland.

Why wasn't the area Israel that currently resides on become a neutral territory? That whole area is the nexus of several religions and should belong to no single group.

Jerusalem was supposed to be. As part of the partition plan, Jerusalem was designated an international city, not part of either the Jewish or Palestinian state. Neither side accepted that, the British wanted their troops out because they were fed up of getting shot at by both sides, and the rest of the international community weren't prepared to send troops to ensure a peacefull transition.

Reminds me of the original people of the North american continent.
They no longer live as a nation, a new race of people and a new country took them over.

The difference is the new race of people eventually gave them citizenship, and equality under the law. For most Palestinians, the new nation (Israel) has given them military occupation)

Today 95% of the Palestinians live under Palestinian Control, under the direct administration of the Fatah party (Now hamas a terrorist organization with one objective the destruction of israel) and the PLO, which renamed itself the PA (Palestine Authority).

No. Most of the Palestinians (nowhere near 95%, though) live under some level of civil control by the PA, but still under Israeli military control. The PA is not a national government, not even the equivalent of a US state government, more like a US town administration.

This was simply a trick by Arafat to try to claim territory which has always belonged to Israel.

How has it "always belonged to Israel"? Did it belong to Israel 200 years ago? A thousand years ago? Not even 2000 years ago, in fact.

Some Arabs did settle there in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and they have been given the chance to integrate into Israel.

Some Arabs settled in Palestine in the late 1800s? Who exactly lived there before that?

The first truly reliable census of Palestine was the British one of 1922.

Moslems ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 590,890
Jews ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 83,794
Christians ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 73,024
Druzes ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 7,028
Samaritans ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 163
Bahais ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 265
Metawallis ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 156
Hindoos ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 1,454
Sikhs ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 408

However, most of the Palestinians who claim to be “Palestinian:” have jordanian, syrian, lebanese, and egyptian Passports. In other words, they are imports and illegals. The goal is to overwhelm Jews by Immigration and population transfers.

Most don't have passports at all. Those who do have foreign passports because Israel won't accept them as citizens, nor allow them to form their own country.

In other words, they are imports and illegals.

I do find it strange that in attempts to rewrite history people claim the Arabs of Palestine were "imports", when in fact the Jews of Israel really are "imports". For example, Arafat is labelled an Egyptian, despite his family being from Jerusalem. The first four Israeli prime ministers came from Poland, Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine. The sixth, seventh and eighth came from Russia, Poland and Poland. But of course, it was Arafat who was the foreigner.

[storch]

Originally posted by straffo
Give California the Palestinian.


Problem solved.

they would fit right in, bombs and all.

[crowMAW]

Seagoon...thank you for posting the exact reason Arabs identify with the Palestine region.

Originally posted by weaselsan
The Modern Term Palestine came back into usage both as a response of the Jews to reclaim a homeland of their own, and because the British Empire administered the territory of what used to be ancient Israel.

The British called this territory “the Palestinian mandate”. However the term “Palestine” has always historically been used to refer to a Jewish Nation and a Jewish Homeland. Prior to the British taking over their “Palestinian Mandate” [which actually meant “Jewish mandate”], the territory of Palestine was administered by the Turkish Ottoman Empire (which vaporized and imploded in WW1).

This is an interesting look into revisionist history.

Palestine being tied to a Jewish homeland is a Zionist concept that was first seen in the mid 1800's (Discourse on the Restoration of the Jews, 1844).  The concept gained recognition in the early 1900s culminating after WWI with the League of Nations creating the British Mandate of Palestine & Trans-Jordan.  However, most Jews believed this to be a radical movement.  And it was supported by European anti-Semites who wanted Jews out of their country.  This was recognized by most Jews, thus Zionism was frequently looked on with some scorn as a tool to push them out of modern cities and into a backwards, arid territory with few comforts.  Only after the Holocaust did Zionism become a mainstream concept in the Jewish community.

The Palestine territory has been recognized as an Arab territory since the 7th Century (as Seagoon correctly pointed out).  And it has been known as Palestine during that time.  Below are historical maps of the area dating back over 400 years that clearly identify the area as Palestine (and note how few Jewish named settlements exist).  So, Palestine used to describe an Arab territory is not new at all.

Rand-McNally, 1897

George Cram Family Atlas, 1890
 
Sam Mitchell, c. 1867

John Tallis, c. 1850

d'Anville, 1767

Homann Heirs, 1752

Abraham Ortelius, 1575 (the lower right box calls the area Palestinae)

The revisionist history that Palestine never existed, or that the area was empty and desolate until the Isrealis came with jobs for Arabs, is necessary to justify taking the land from Palestinians...and make it OK.  

I don't condone the methods the Palestinians have used against the Isrealis.  But before these people were called terrorists, they were farmers and fishermen, and goat hearders...not much of a threat to anyone.  Only after massive and illegal immigration of Zionists into their land that overturned their culture did they become a threat.

Personally, I'm not sure I would react much differently should wave after wave of socialists from south of the border start illegally flooding the US to the point that they politically take over...use government to steal land from me and my family to give to their families...make Spanish the official language...and rename my country to Estados Latinos Unidos de América.  I'd probably fight back too.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by crowMAW
I don't condone the methods the Palestinians have used against the Isrealis.  But before these people were called terrorists, they were farmers and fishermen, and goat hearders...not much of a threat to anyone.  Only after massive and illegal immigration of Zionists into their land that overturned their culture did they become a threat.

Personally, I'm not sure I would react much differently should wave after wave of socialists from south of the border start illegally flooding the US to the point that they politically take over...use government to steal land from me and my family to give to their families...make Spanish the official language...and rename my country to Estados Latinos Unidos de América.  I'd probably fight back too.

Sound like a vuagly familiour story only in a different location?
Sayyyyy North American 1800's during the Westward expansion

[weaselsan]

1759 Map of Israel, indicating the 12 tribes of Israel.

[DREDIOCK]

1752 and 1575 trumps 1759 LOL

And can anyone do a translation on what it says in the upper left hand side.

Near as I can tell it says something about sanctity and "Terra" (meaning land I assume) and Palistine.