45

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by wrag
I had a 9mm Beretta 92/96.  Got rid of it.  The recoil was managable but the dang grip was twisting in my hand.

Got a 1911 now.  It shoots better then I do LOL.  Guess you need bigger hands then I have for a 9mm?

Got very narrow grips for it BTW.  Funny never thought of my hands being small???

Look into the Glock 36 wrag.  It is Glock's 6 round 45.  It has a VERY narrow grip.  My buddy who is working convoy security in Iraq, carries it when he is home.  Just a thought.

Karaya

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Really?  I never thought that it was that bad.

In a "controlled environment" the 9mm is good.  Factor in climate and wind, it sucks.  

Karaya

[g00b]

There's a local range here with about 50 guns available for rent. I have tried just about all of them. By and large, the 9mm's suck. Say what you will, poor maintainance or whatever, I find the .45's and large caliber revolvers to be more accurate. The 1st time I tried a 9mm glock I thought something had to be broken. We're talkin 6-10 inch groups at 7m. Didn't do much better with the 9mm Berreta's or Sig's either. With a nice 1911 I can tear the bullseye out, maybe a 2 inch group on average. With my Ruger MKII 6 7/8" bull barrel I can shoot sub 1 inch groups. With my Baikal IZH-46M Match Air Pistol I can pop paintballs at 18yrds about 1/2 the time, offhand. It's truly amazing what a difference a quality gun makes.

[Shamus]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Yeah, but just don't EVER reload ammo to carry for personal defense. If you did not buy it in a store, or it was not issued to you by your department, just don't put it in your weapon for anything but practice.

I know that most PD's require this, but over the years I have had fewer malfunctions with my reloads than with store bought stuff.

Primer failure is the only thing you cant predict.

I have seen 'no powder' loads in commercial stuff, never had that in home rolled.

shamus

[Nomak]

Originally posted by Maverick
Nomak,

FWIW, I went the oposite way. Off duty I carried an Officers Model in stainless. Other thatn the really crappy design flaw with the recoil spring retaining cap it was a nice piece. It shot very well for me but was freaking HEAVY and only held 7 rounds. A second mag was also heavy. After I saw the smaller Glock's and had a chance to compare them side by side with the Colt, it was another easy choice. The Glock was lighter full up with 16 rds than the Colt was empty. It also was vitually the same size length, height and thickness. It shot so well for me that I changed to the same weapon for on and off duty. I also used it and my duty rig for combat competition against the "race guns" and "competition holsters". I held my own just fine on speed of draw using a heavy tight thumb break holster. The enclosed mag pouches weren't any real help though.

After we had a couple protracted shootouts the Dept. decide to allow the semi auto's for duty. When I saw the first Glock I thought it was the ugliest darn thing I had ever seen in a hand gun. Until I shot it. I wasn't an adherant to the 9mm at all but given the departmental mandate on caliber it was an easy choice. I went from a Model 66 4" loaded with .38+p silvertips (Dept ammo ONLY allowed on duty) to a Glock with Black Talons. Yep the EVIL  bullet. Still Dept. issued ammo until the bleeding hearts B****ed about it and got it changed to CCI Gold Dots. I had more rounds in one mag than I had on my person total with the revolver. I had a total of 51 rounds with all mags.

For me the Glock shot very well, accurate and reliable including with my reloads. LIke any other PERSONAL choice, it's not for everyone. The .45 also shot well and I never felt that I was handicapped by either guns accuracy, just the 45's weight and low ammo count.

Please forgive me but as I am not in law enforcement I am not sure what an "Officers Model" is......I gather a 4" revolver?

I really like Glocks and will probably own another one...... However once I put a few rds downrange with the Kimber my Glock felt......well..... "Cheap"  The 1911 feel and espically trigger pull were worlds better.  My Kimber has also converted 2 of my best buds from Glocks to Kimbers.

The Glock shot very well for me also.  The 1911 shots even better though.  

I actually prefer a heaver sidearm.  The weight while I am carrying I dont even notice and the gun feels more stable to be.  Espically when firing hot ammo.  It seems to me to be easer to keep the sights on target for a second and third shot with the heaver piece.

As far as capacity I use Wilson combat mags.  They are much nicer than the original Kimber mags I recieved.  They hold 8 and then I put 1 in the pipe cocked and locked.  I figure 9 is enough.

I should say that I have Not  had the same experence with other 1911's.  I have shot Colts, Para Ord, Springfield etc etc and I found the Kimber to be worlds better.

I guess all that sounds like a Kimber promo  Sorry about that its not meant to.  Just relating my personal experence with them.

Dave

[Shamus]

An Officers Model is a compact Colt 1911.

shamus

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Shamus
I know that most PD's require this, but over the years I have had fewer malfunctions with my reloads than with store bought stuff.

Primer failure is the only thing you cant predict.

I have seen 'no powder' loads in commercial stuff, never had that in home rolled.

shamus

Shoot a perp (whether you're a civilian or a department member) with ammo loaded at home and see how many lawyers and D.A.'s line up for a piece of your bellybutton and how fast they do it.

[Shamus]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Shoot a perp (whether you're a civilian or a department member) with ammo loaded at home and see how many lawyers and D.A.'s line up for a piece of your bellybutton and how fast they do it.

A red herring, never heard of this being an issue, have you?

shamus

PS: and one horror story is not enough.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Shamus
A red herring, never heard of this being an issue, have you?

shamus

PS: and one horror story is not enough.

I found out about it YEARS ago. No, I can no longer quote specific examples. Yes, I did at one time remember specific examples. I gave up law enforcement 20 years ago, so I haven't had the need to remember that sort of thing for a while. I remember it well enough to remember NOT to do it, despite having $2000+ worth of reloading equipment and enjoying the reloading process immensely. You can bet your last dollar that if I thought non commercial reloads for personal defense were a good idea, I wouldn't waste a lot of money on factory ammo I don't like as much as my own ammo for half a dozen guns. Go ahead and carry non commercial reloads if you want. I'll pass. People smarter than I taught me better, and I paid money for the lessons.

[Rino]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The 45ACP was developed in response to the MORO warriors, who were severing the heads of soldiers AFTER being mortally wounded by 38 Colt rounds.

Given "ball" type ammo (non hollow point), the 45 has a much greater frontal area than the 9mm, about the same difference as between the 45 and the 38 (remember the Moro warriors?), and as such transfers more energy to flesh, and disrupts more tissue, creating more shock and a larger wound channel.

When you move to hollow point ammo, the difference is even greater. One of the most reliable man stopping rounds is the 45ACP 230 grain flying ashtray. It ranks a VERY close second to the 357 Magnum 125 grain +P hollow point. The 9mm is not often in the top five.

There were four main reasons given for adopting the 9mm over the 45 for military use, most of which are not even valid, some of which the weapon adopted negates.

The first is that our NATO allies use the 9mm.

The second is that the 9mm is more likely to penetrate hardened (kevlar) headgear. Well, rarely do you have people shot in the helmet, because few people try headshots, and even then, you rarely see one made at an angle that allows ANY pistol round to penetrate.

The third is grip size. A full third or more people find the old 1911 Colt grip much more agreable than the Model 92 Beretta. The grip of the 92 Beretta is not small, because it has a double stack magazine, and the trigger reach, especially for the first shot, isn't much shorter either.

Fourth is felt recoil/controlability. Many find the Beretta to be no more controllable than the 1911, because despite being 100 years old, the frame/grip of the 1911 was better designed to fit the human hand and control recoil.

Regarding capacity, I'd rather hit the enemy ONCE and put him DOWN, than hit him three or four times and have him keep coming.

I always thought that it was the .45 Long Colt that was developed in
response to the Moro?

[eagl]

I've never had a problem with 9mm accuracy even when shooting beat up USAF berettas during range qualifications.  Every time I've had to qual I've shot expert (even on the new/improved USAF course which emphasizes combat shooting skills).

I have the same beretta in .40 and it rocks.  CHP tested rounds and liked the 10mm but it's too long of a cartridge for small hands to hold on to (mostly female cops) so they went with the .40 as a compromise.  They seem to be having good results after some initial frame/slide cracking issues with their guns.

The small CHP issue S&W guns twist badly in my hand but the bigger beretta and the same round gives me a nice linear recoil.  Even my wife handles my beretta .40 fine, and I used it to train her up before she had to pass the USAF 9mm qual course.  She qualified no problem although fatigue resulted in her pulling a dozen shots about 6 inches low.  Still on paper = qual, but not in the circle means no expert qual.

[wrag]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
Look into the Glock 36 wrag.  It is Glock's 6 round 45.  It has a VERY narrow grip.  My buddy who is working convoy security in Iraq, carries it when he is home.  Just a thought.

Karaya

Thanks for the suggestion but my 45's fit perfectly now.  Funny though got a 44 with a big grip and a so does my 357 and NO problem.

Think it's just the shape of some grips?

[wrag]

Originally posted by Shamus
A red herring, never heard of this being an issue, have you?

shamus

PS: and one horror story is not enough.

The ammo itself isn't the deal here.  The thought process is.  The claim is they go after you because he set out to create ammo to KILL.  Kinda a premeditated murder thing.

Been lookin around for the Hornady 200 45 acp in commercial though.

Geez stupid me, should check the Hornady site.

[lazs2]

I like my Kimber in .45   Us old guys just like the quality feel of it I guess..  but... now I will really show my age... I like wheelguns.... wheelguns are real guns.

I have a ruger redhawk cut down to 4" and despured with elk grips that I would want with me against man or bear.    The .45 seems "cute" and "weak" next to it.  

If I had to carry a plastic black pistol for some reason tho... it would either be 45 or .357 sig.  I would lean toward the .357 sig.

for carry the 340PD smith at 12 ounces empty is the perfect "in your pocket" gun.  

.357, 44 or 45 is about what I keep going back to.

lazs

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Rino
I always thought that it was the .45 Long Colt that was developed in
response to the Moro?

Go check the timeline. The .45 Long colt, was around before much of anyone in the US even heard about the Moro's.

The .38 double action revolver was the replacement for the .45 for the military until the Moro's showed that ball ammo at low velocity with a small frontal area is not a good stopper. The .38 then was even slower than the .45 at 650 to 700 fps.