Rudder and trim use

[SkevJ]

This is where I get lost.

Whenever I'm in a training arena and people teach me manuevers I have a good time understanding what they are teaching but when it comes to the rudder and elevator trim use I get lost. So my question to experts is what is the purpose of Rudder and trim use?

[B@tfinkV]

im not an expert, but here it is.



rudder trim is only used (by me) when the plane is badly damaged and im trying to counter the effects of missing half a wing, or losing an engine in multi-engined planes. leave this well alone, IMO.



elevator trim is very usefull. set to full deflection up it will do exactly what you expect. pull up/round faster.


the combat trim sets the trim automatically for whatever it thinks is best for you at any time.

manual trim will override this function, therefore you can keep the elevators fully trimmed up at all times.

a good time to use elevator trim is when trying to pull out of a compression dive.

another is when fighting in a turn fight with a more nimle plane.



be warned though, it can produce unstable flight if you are not used to it, and will make the nose bounce for gunnery alot more noticable.


bat

[Socks]

Another good example of using elevator trim is when I take one of the FWs up for a flight. The 190s tend to nose up horrifically (don't most planes?) when you're in a dive and increasing speed. What you can do is gradually trim elevator down as you're in your dive and increasing speed to combat the nose up and it makes gun solutions much easier as you don't have to fight with the plane and really push the stick down to keep the nose at the angle you want to maintain during said dive. This allows you to be lighter on the stick during the attack and allows for much more smooth, fluid guns solutions.

Like Batfink said, using elevator trim during a compression dive is sometimes the only difference between pulling out of it and continuing on with your flight or becoming a temporary lawn ornament. I've also seen examples of setting the elevator trim up during slow and low TnBing. Remember, the Combat Trim doesn't compensate for flaps, and isn't really good at the two extremes: really slow, and really fast.

I don't know if anyone else does it, but I really utilize the elevator and aileron trims when I land. This allows me to keep the plane nice and straight with minimal input on the stick allowing me to counteract the nose up from flaps, not changing my course that much.. etc etc. If there's one thing I can do (not really good at dogfighting), is put a plane down on a runway like a baby in a cradle using the trim and that's usually the highlight of my flight.   I honestly never use rudder trim and it's the only trim not mapped on my setup.

I'd highly suggest reading this material over at netAces. You can read up on it and start practicing different situations where the trim might be useful; manual, combat, and everything between. Hope this helps.

[Schutt]

To get the plane fly straigth for easier shooting i switch combat trim on and off again quickly.

During combat or flying i use elevator trim to get steady dive (down), easier nose drop when slow(down), better turn performance when fast(up), pull out of dive when to fast(up), avoid slow speed - nose up flying which makes me stall(down).

The down/up always being from the combat trim "neutral" that i get.

Usually combat trim makes you fly straight, but i noticed that in verry fast dives combat trim pulls you slightly out of dive in some planes.

Trimming down/up from ct neutral position is best done with 3 free buttons on joystick, one to toggle ct, one for trim up one for trim down. The only disadvantage is that with "neutralizing" trims with ct you get your elevator trim set to current speed and have to trim for quite a while  to get it to the desired trim position again. Also since autopilot trims the ac for lvl (climb/angle) flight you always have to retrim after autopilot.

An alternative is to use a "trimwheel"(rotary) which is present on some joysticks and map it to the elevator trim, dont forget to turn it all the way during joystick calibration AND center it before pressing the calibration finish button. Then you always have the wheel position the same as the elevator trim as soon as autopilots and ct are off. I find that verry convinient but a lot of work, since i always need to manually adjust the trim.

[Pooface]

revor, as a new pilot, you shouldn't worry about trim. not many people use it in a fight, and combat trim will do it for you anyway. the only plus to manual trim is that you can get the plane ready fora  move before you do it, which the combat trim wont do. BUT, at an early stage, it doesnt matter at all. i mean, ive been flying for a year, and i still use combat trim. the only plane i would say needs trimming is a p38, to get the most out of it


what is far more important is flap and throttle control. and rudder, is very important for lining up shots in a move. im not sure whether you're actually talking about rudder trim, or rudder here, if rudder trim, follow my advice above, leave it alone for now. if you're actually talking about rudder, if you dont have a rudder on your joystick, or pedals, you may find it difficult, because rudder is very important for flying the plane, and helps you track a guy during a move, giving you a longer gun solution

[AutoPilot]

BUT, at an early stage, it doesnt matter at all.

I disagree with this totally.i have ran into too many people that have been playing AH for a year or more that feel they are at a level where they are stuck,and they can't figure out why someone is outturning them or just plain out flying them.After being shown trim control they are lifted from this level of game play and continue on with thier skills.I also feel that every person that comes into this "Game" should learn trim control as early as possible,granted some are not mentally all there too learn such things but it never hurts too try.

I use trim control full time in just about every aspect of this game involving a plane,not really landing as much because that is a flap issue.Climbing in a fully loaded out P-47,with trim control the 47 will climb alot better with the elevator up as will alot of aircraft.The Fw-190 well,you just hit wep on take-off and let it ride.

With combat trim the control parts will only move so far as with in using trim control the elevator will go even further up than it does with combat trim " No matter what anybody else say's".I myself am pretty good at teaching the usage and set up of Trim Control so if you neeed any help i am usually in the TA,if not PM me i can try to set up a time.

[Soda]

I thought someone in the past tested elevator trim in turns and revealed that it was false that it made any difference.  Totaly deflection was the same (ie, turn rate) but the amount of stick movement until total deflection was only slight reduced (ie, it made it a bit more sensitive.  It made NO difference in actual turn rate...  at least that's what I remember.

For me, honestly, I barely use trim.  I use it to pull out of dives sometimes if I get overspeed, I click on autopilot from time to time to ensure I'm trimmed in roll correctly, there is almost no reason to use your rudder (yaw) trim unless you are flying damaged.  You don't want to get too far out of trim in general for your alt/speed but it's not a game-breaker to constantly be adjusting trim (like in IL2).  One caveat was combat-trim, combat trim is fairly effective under "normal" conditions in the centre of the flight envelope but near the edges it tends to get a bit wonky.  It can be a detriment in some aircraft, P-38 and 109's come to mind, so I've never used combat trim.

[B@tfinkV]

well, some conflicting views here, and all equally valid for the individual.


I CAN promise you that my F4UD with manual trim and elevs set to full deflection up will outturn a spitfire much easier than with it on combat trim.

maybe its a placebo?


in the merge, you are most likely to be diving to get the vertical seperation advantage. Combat Trim will be deflecting your elevs down at this point.  with the elevs trimmed up you have to froce the dive even harder, but once youu start the merge you will flip round in half the time, i am sure.


geuss you're gunna have to test it out, see what you like best, and leave our opinions in this forum till you know for yourself.

[Kermit de frog]

Not using combat trim is another great challenge for those that like challenges.

Combat trim was designed for the noobs so that they could start to fight right away.

Try disabling combat trim in your settings.  That way, you can never use combat trim.

I disabled it in my settings.  Whenever I hit control-x, the light turns on for combat trim, but it doesn't work.

Setting>preferences>flight>uncheck auto combat trim.  ( I think that's how you change it)

It makes gunnery harder, and can cause problems when dogfighting.  I am constantly adjusting trim in fights.  For me, it helps improve my instantanous turn rate as well as improve roll rate.
"At the same time, it reduces turn rate and roll rate in other directions"
If you don't get what i just said in the quotations, ignore it, for I don't want to type out the explanation for that

[DamnedRen]

Combat trim "on" will never hurt you. Especially if you're new to the game.

For those who have been flying a year and seem to always be out turned, you may want to spend some quality time with a trainer. He will get you past those hurdles.

There's an old saying in sim flying. If you "think" it's working for you then maybe it is. As long as you have fun doing it!

[AutoPilot]

Combat trim was designed for the noobs so that they could start to fight right away.

Thats funny  stuff kermit really,because 1/2 the newbies i work with would have a way harder time learning trim control than they would learning the basics like flying in a straight line.Out of all the newbiez i work with only 15% of them are ready to learn Combat Trim in the beginning of thier instruction.Those wo have played Flight Sim games before and have the basics of flight down.

Not using combat trim is another great challenge for those that like challenges.

Tha right there is just plain ignorant.

[GunnerCAF]

Trim is over rated.  The trim debate has raged since the beginnings of AH.   If you want more speed, it is best to understand Energy.

I use manual trim all the time, but rarely when fighting.  Combat trim works just fine.  This is not something that needs to in early air combat training.  It's kind of like teaching a lumberjack to use sandpaper.  Yes, it's good to know how it works, but you don't need it for cutting down trees.

Use of rudder is much more useful.  You can use rudder when shooting guns, but should not be used with rockets or bombs.  It is also good for landing.

Gunner

[TequilaChaser]

Autopilot, Kermit was refering to Combat Trim ----> Ctrl-X   as in for new flyers turn on CT


you are referencing Combat trim as manual trim actually...........


telling Kermit he is ignorant because he said not using combat Trim is a challenge, is well ignorant in itself..........you picked the word, I didn't;)

Kermit had it right, not using CT/Combat Trim/Ctrl-X  and using manual trim is more of a challenge.........



Kermit, not sure how your settings are, but I too have CT/Combat Trim turned off, but when I hit Ctrl-X it turns on the light and it works until I switch it back off...........and if I am for example in a slow E bleeding climb and I switch CT on it adjust the trim tabs to the current situation quite briskly

Soda,
I use rudder to keep the stick/ball centered for the most part.......unless I am wanting to skid on purpose or something calls for it.........but most times improper use of rudder is going to throw off your shot.....

[AutoPilot]

Well TC i call it how i see it.Those that tell you it doesn't help  are usually the ones that don't want the others too figure it out.

[Soda]

Originally posted by AutoPilot
Well TC i call it how i see it.Those that tell you it doesn't help  are usually the ones that don't want the others too figure it out.

Conspiracy Theory... hillarious.  

Obviously you are a bit unclear, combat-trim is a function, the act of triming for combat is different.   Trimming to improve turn-rate (ie, trimming pitch up) has been discussed and is a myth. Trim does have advantages for gunnery, for drag, to help keep the controls centered, and in some specific circumstances (like pulling out of a dive in some aircraft) but "impressions" that it is an advantage are likely not based on truth according to the 10 other times it's been discussed in this forum.

AutoPilot, I'd be really careful selling anyone else on your theory unless you can actually prove it with real measurements.