So much for separation of church and state

[Tac]

Its all lies and convenient red-taping.

Just look at the dollar bill. IN GOD WE TRUST.


Hmm... sounds like the state is promoting the church.

Believe in the Force...and it shall never fail you  

[RAM]

<S> SeaWulfe.

let me ask you another question.

Based on your answer, I take it as that you think that when life is over, its all over. So there is no real sense? its all chaos?.

Maybe I'm too weak to think on a future after the death without further things. I dont share many things with the catholic christianism (I'm baptisted as one). Still I think there is SOMETHING that created us, I dont know if its called God, Allah, Jehovah, or even if it is a spirit that lives in anything alive that surrouds us (the base of the anymist religions).

I simply **feel** that we are not on our own ,and that after we die we will have much more things to experience.

But that is only my take on this matter  


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-21-2001).]

[AKSeaWulfe]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
<S> SeaWulfe.

let me ask you another question.

Based on your answer, I take it as that you think that when life is over, its all over. So there is no real sense? its all chaos?.


I simply **feel** that we are not on our own ,and that after we die we will have much more things to experience.

Chaos? No there is order to life, or atleast a percieved order. We create order within our lives, and we live in order. It's not chaos, human nature gives us the ability to think logically and create a life that is easy for us all to live. God didn't create the governments we live in, we did so we don't wander this planet aimlessly. I don't believe we're alone either, I believe there are planets out there capable of sustaining life and we will find that out sooner or later. It's all just a matter of our own reliance that there is something after death and that we are alone in the universe. It's simply to vast for us to know what's out there. We assume we're the only intelligent life, maybe we are. But somewhere out there, there must be a planet somewhat like ours where life is. We don't even know what's under the icy surface of one of saturn's(I think) moons. We think there's water and that there's a heated core. We just recently found life on the ocean floor on our own planet, where light never shines but there are fish and other creatures living there. There's just too much for us to understand and we second guess things. That is why people feel the need for a God and perhaps the need to look for something after life. You probably wouldn't leave a normal life if you were to find out there was nothing after death(just based on what you said about God and you hope there is something after you die).

I don't know, there's just too much for us to grasp with our limited brain power(only use 10% or something like that of our entire brain). We don't even know what we're capable of because we can't use our entire brain.

I just live my life to what I expect to get out of it and nothing less. If we were to find out that there was no higher power, we might live in chaos.

I just don't have a "feeling" that there's anything that created us. If there is, it gave me the s__t end of the stick and I would never thank it for what it did.

Other people have faith and that's fine by me. Just keep it away from me, I want no part of it just like they want no part of what I have to say.

Don't take this offensively if I say anything you don't like, I don't mean it. It's just my position on it all.

I personally don't care what faith(s) and what religious sayings are used on the national money, at the presidential inauguration or said to represent the United States(or any other country).

Other people can believe what they want to, and I will do my own thang. ;-)

OTOH, I do wonder if something does happen after life. Maybe when we die we slip to another dimension, but I'm not sure what it would be like there. Not even sure if there would be a superior being there.

I will figure it out when I die, just like everyone else. :-)
-SW

[StSanta]

Daff, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth because it actively supports one religion and not others. it leaves a foul taste in my mouth that I cannot leave the state church til I am 18, unless I get my parents consent around 15.

It screams of superstition, of the dark ages, of mass grandeur delusion to *force* people into a belief system, *especially* a belief system with such a *violent* history as the lutheran evangelical has had in Denmark.

The US haven't had those sorts of persecutions, but it UPSETS mme when I realize that for 18 years, I had no choice but to follow in line so to speak. It's disgusting, dehumanizing and demeaning.

Gman, I can produce more quotes of the founding fathers, showing that they weren't precisely keen on religion and some not keen on Christianity in particular. Can you support your view with quotes from the same?  

RAM: you've hit the jackpot question; most think the life of the atheist must be extraordinarily good and easy - never having to answer to something, never having to *answer* something.

The truth is the direct opposite. By not having an universal law that cannot be debated, I am forced to take each and every value into questioN; ask what it is, why is it there, if it makes sense in the greater scheme of things, how it affects me and my environment and so forth. I use a collection of moral theories from different phiolosphers that each are flawed, but used combined gives a decent, if imperfect, system.

The question about the meaning of life is a good one. One I can answer with: what is the meaning of coffee? The only answer I've found so far is to *experience* - to go out over the normal and known and see what else there is; Aye, it will all be nullified by death, but with life I feel the journey, not the destination, is the goal.

Me, I am a moral hedonist. I will not allow my search for pleasure to violate or hurt others, within reasonable limits (Jehovas witnesses do not appreciate skydiving, but I don't care is an example, even though I might hurt their feelings).

I live to be astounded. I live to be awed by people, by nature, by my own reactions. I live to learn about the world, and, more importantly, about myself. Of course,e very day life right now is not very exciting due to lack of funds, but if I live long enough, I will have enough cash to experience many wondrous things. And tragic things of course; the realisation that I will probably outlive loved ones is very scary, especially as to an atheist, there is no comfort in there being a better place.

I view myself as an animal - an advanced animal. There's nothing miraculous or divine in me. Still, I am in awe of the accomplishments of the human animal, the great potential. The capability to do utterly reprehensible things and the ability to accomplish astounding insights and understandings. Music - what a concept for an animal! Even our use of language sometimes fascinates me; usually when I am in a group somewhere, I am the observer. SOmetimes I think I'm one of the few in the group that observe the marvellous things that happen when humans interact, but I know I am not.

Life, all in all, is fantastic. It's also finite. In this, I understand the appeal of theism. It gives us what we really don't have, unlimited time.

Depressions when yer an atheist are hard hitting and severe - at least I've had my worst one ever just recently and it has taken me some time to fight back. Hope can only be found in yourself, in others and in finding the small things in life to improve your mood. There is not, and will never be  with all probability, divine intervention. Yer on your own, and you should treasure it; total responsibility and total freedom.

Would it be nice to have something ethereal, caring, loving? Yes. Would also be nice to take rides on unicorns, I think.

Be as it may, I *cannot* believe, even though I want to. My mind is always looking for plausability, for evidence and support. I'm a born skeptic and sometimes even doubt the most obvious of things.

Things aren't chaotic -- at least we experience some kind of continuum, be it illusionary or not. Death is quite simply the absence of life - there is no good, evil, no pleasures and no pains. What saddens me most is it removes the possibility of experiencing.

I don't fear dying per se. I fear missing out on all the cool stuff that awaits anyone willing to look  .

Oops, turned into an essay. Sorry about that; hope I answer your question.

Those who wish to pray, feel free to. But please, do not expect me to stand in silence while you do; that is entruding on *my* right to freedom *from* religion. I shall tolerate religions; while I might not respect the religion, there are very few religious *people* I do not respect. We all operate differently and hae different priorities in life. Mine seems to operate around finding support for ideas and dismissing those that do not add up.

Limited spiritual life? Myabe; but my spiritual experiences can approximate religious ones I gather; hair raising on back of head, awestuck face and so forth.

Guess I've either been taken by Satan or (if there are such things) the gods want me to be what I am  .

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"We are the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldritch

[AKSeaWulfe]

Santa, you said it better than I ever could (or atleast with my head clouded over by the flu). I think we're on the same page on our stance on things. I too believe humans are just super-intelligent animals. We eat to live, we kill to eat, and in the end we die just like everything else.

However, life has it's depressionary fits for everyone.. religious or not. That's why we invented drugs, or we harvest marijuana or we ferment wheat or potatoes or grapes to create alchohol. You need an escape from yourself every now and then so you when you come back around to sobriety you feel a little better with you break from reality.
;-)

I have faith, in myself, that I can do whatever I want(within the limitations of my morals) and still have fun.

Anywho, I hear ya Santa... even if you are a luftweenie! ;-)
-SW

[MrBill]

"The US haven't had those sorts of persecutions"

Hummmm, I suppose that depends on whom you are talking to/about, the Europeans, who came here of their own accord; the Africans who were brought here against their will; or the Native American who were slaughtered, in numbers greater, than any other peoples in any era anywhere on the face of the planet.

------------------
OhNooo
smile awhile

[TheWobble]

its hard to really spearate religion because of the following.

Lets say Bush was gonna do a prayer, what if they popped out and said "NO you cant pray" doesent that violate freedome of religion? Im kinda weak on do's and donts here but I do understand why its kinda hard to spearate them, no matter what ya do you will step on just as many toes.  Its frusterating like that, basically what it boils down to is trying to please everyone and thus not doing enough for either, thus pisseng everyone off, self destructive if you will.  I agree with StSanta that maby he didnt need to do that, but its kinda hard to tell people NOT to pray, alot harder than just being unhappy with it.  Thw whole Idea of separation of church in state is like many ideas, it seems good and feasable on paper and in mind, but when put into turbulent real world situations it does not fuction as it should because of the variables in how it is implemented and the feelings of thos it affects, once again i must say   I dont care If you worship your lawn mower, just keep it outta my yard  

cmon people it has good intentions, dont slam it too hard  

[AKSeaWulfe]

Good intentions or not Wobble, it definitely was at the wrong place and at the wrong time. "Land of the free...", should that be restated as "Land of the free, but our religion will be in your face day in and day out..."?
You pray at meals, you pray in a catholic school, you pray when you are at home, you pray at your office silently to yourself, you pray at church, you pray in your car, you can pray anywhere you want to... but you don't pray in one religions prayer on a nationaly televised event. It's just bad taste, and smells of enforcing one type of belief system on a country built around freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

The National Anthem and a prayer are two different things, one is said within our country representing our country. The other is something that represents one religion, in a country with multiple religions.

Bad taste all the way if you ask me.
-SW

[Yeager]

or the Native American who were slaughtered, in numbers greater, than any other peoples in any era anywhere on the face of the planet.
=======
Where can I substantiate this claim?

Yeager

[Tac]

Go to any half assed us history class and you will see in the textbooks how quickly the native american populations dropped after the US conquest of its western territories.

The same thing happened in South America and Central America. Heck, whole civilizations were wiped out.

I still stand in my position on this: Look at the dollar bill's "In God We Trust" and then tell me how constitutional that is. Truth is people, that little green piece of paper IS god nowadays. It gets away with anything and can make unbelievers flock to it and make sacrifices in its temple.

That the new president wants to teach Genesis in school and make people pray in schools may happen. All you need is fanatical people (like those amazinhunks that knock in your door every saturday at 6:30 am, wake you up, smile and remind you to go to church and then offer to sell you cookies) in the right places, a lot of the green papered god and of course, some media support (aka, if they got the SCOOTER to become popular, they can do ANYTHING).

Gimme some SOMA dammit... need some escape from this hypocrisy...    

[Fatty]

Santa, I'm athiest, but I don't see any reason to call for the banishment of organized religions.  I don't expect Bush to drop his religion anymore than I'd have expected Gore to quit asking himself what Jesus would do for every major decision.

If an incoming president wants to have a prayer of thanks, or even a prayer every day happy because he had a good breakfast, I could care less.  If you start to limit people's expression of religion you've gone beyond seperation and into the denial of basic rights.

On the one side, people are still calling for replacing evolution with creationism, on the other are people outraged at every mention of religion.  Somewhere in the middle most of us are particularly unconcerned.

[funked]

I'm a believer and I agree with Fatty's statement 100%.

It's really funny how you Euros get these nutty (wrong) ideas about how things are here in the States.  Too much TV I think.  Either that or a real boring Sunday without a joystick, eh Santa?

Hats off to the President for expressing his faith in a world which is increasingly hostile to God.  Fight the power!

[MrBill]

Yeager

You could start with Pulitzer Prize winner "Guns, Germs, and Steel" subtitle the Fate of Human Societies by Jared Diamond. ISBN 0-393-03891-2 this covers ... well the fates of worldwide human societies.

More to the point of native americans I suggest Russel Thornton's "American Indian Holocaust and Survival", and Henry Dobyns "Their Number Became Thinned"

The numbers these authors discuss are backed up to a large degree by modern physical anthropology and are truly staggering.

I am somewhat amazed that we who are immersed in, and proud of, our knowledge of W.W.II history have so little knowledge of the much larger history of the entire spectrum of mankind??

The following is a paraphrase cause I forget the exact quote

Whomever fails to study the past is destined to repeat it's mistakes.
   

------------------
OhNooo
smile awhile

[TheWobble]

actually disease from white settlers killed far more indians than bullets, not trying to make an excuse though.  I dont like religion being crammed in my face, however you are the one holding the remote when it comes on TV change the channel if it bother you so much.  I dont really care either way, I believe in god but not organized religion.  When i see it on TV i dont see some amazinhunk trying to push his faith on me i just see someone expressing their feeling, as long as they dont push it at you ya cant really squeak about it.

Whats next? no preyer at weddings because not all the people attending believe in a given religion, cmon folks.

[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 01-22-2001).]

[StSanta]

Guys, show me where I said "abolish all religions" in my post.  .

I'll say it in private mostly because I think superstition is a Bad Idea(tm). But I'll never say it and seriously mean it and I wouldn't say it on a forum where I know it will be a needlessly inflammatory comment. Unless I got something at stakes  .

What I do want is a separation of state authority and religious matters. We don't have that here, at least not on paper. It's a little weird that Denmark is a much more secular country than the US, despite of this.

Deja, I was thinking the same; we're actually sharing a view here. If you bring the alcohol, I'll bring the weed; let's celebrate   .

The persecutions I was referring to was not any old persecution, but religious persecution. Hell, the HCristians managed to sneak their way into Viking society, snatch a few top positions and soon, Asatru was in a recession or almost extinguished until very recently when it was formally accepted as a real religion in some Scandinavian countries.

Freethinkers or people with alternative views were, during a long time here, persecuted and killed. Banished from society or frozen out. This happened up until recently; a number of Danes left for the US for the greater religious freedom there. My respect for the state church (that refers to itself as the people's church in a lame attempt to avoid the negative associations) is quite low; boosted somewhat by concessions to secular life and an overall unintrusive attitude.

So, with that being said, the US and some other states have this *great* thing with separation of church and state. I'd think it's worth protecting just as much as your other amendments; historical records show what can happen when this is not the case.

If Bush wishes to pray or express his personal belief; let him be free to. I do not however think using public state oriented gatherings to push his religion is a good thing in a country where there exists a separation of church and state.

And that, quite basically, is the main objective of the major religions; to expand. As history has shown and indeed we see in every day life, this is a major factor. Missionaries here and there, wars with religious background coming up from rocks where it has hidden.

There are many positive sides to religion. These manifests themselves in the *personal faith* of the individual and what it adds to this individuals capacity/life philosophy. It can add strength during esperate times, it can give hope when no hope can be found elsewhere. Can be a moral guideline that helps the individual to help others. To me, it's not "all religion is bad" as in an absolute statement. But when it becomes a group mentality mob thing, things do turn ugly.

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups apply here as well as in many situations more immediate to me (such as the pic in my sig   ). I think history has shown us the strength religious freedom and freedom from religion can bring to a country; the US founding fathers,having a great understanding of the American enlightenment period and contributing to it, really had a lot of foresight when they implemented this through the constitution.

Ya got something very sweet, something envyable. Methinks it's worth guarding, and guarding well.

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
 
"We are the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldritch

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 01-22-2001).]