So much for separation of church and state

[Gunthr]

StSanta, I think a week in the Mir would cure your atheism...

 
Gunthr

[StSanta]

Gunthr, if I could go to Mir, I'd die a happy man.

What an experience   .

Atheism is the cure for theism, you got it the wrong way around  

If God gave me a cute brunette, good health and enough cash to sustain me for the rest of my life, I'd concede that he might eventually possibly maybe exist  

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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
 
"We are the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldritch

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 01-22-2001).]

[funked]

Santa, your posts show that your knowledge of the US is quite poor.  The thought that Bush is a threat to the separation of church and state is pure nonsense.  Where do you get your strange impressions from?  Do you subscribe to USA Today?  Maybe you watch US sitcoms?  I suggest you refrain from discussing things you know nothing about.

Separation of church in state is quite alive and well here in the US.  In fact there has been a liberal campaign in the last half-century to stamp out expression of religion in any way that could be even slightly construed as "inappropriate".  US Presidents giving due respect to God and leading people in prayer in public is nothing new and thank God will continue.  

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 01-22-2001).]

[Eagler]

liberals goal is to remove any reference of God entirely. They are using the separation of church and state as a tool only. Once God is removed, man is left with government being the one 'true' power. The belief of God and being held accountable for one's life actions at an individuals "passing over", runs against the grain of the average liberal's mindset. Aren't all atheist's lib's? I've never met a conservative atheist yet  

Eagler

[blur]

 

Originally posted by Eagler:
liberals goal is to remove any reference of God entirely. They are using the separation of church and state as a tool only. Once God is removed, man is left with government being the one 'true' power. The belief of God and being held accountable for one's life actions at an individuals "passing over", runs against the grain of the average liberal's mindset. Aren't all atheist's lib's? I've never met a conservative atheist yet  

Eagler

Eagler, I agree with you!  

The left-wing brought up on Darwin's nonsense along with other 20th century scientific thought is brainwashed to believe that we are created from random chemical reactions and thereby live in a meaningless universe. All the liberal is left with is his body. That's why he pushes for cradle to grave social programs. If this meaningless life is all there is then why not make it as comfortable as possible.

The right-wing correctly observes that we've lost a sense of divinity in the world, that there's no moral foundation. The conservative errs however in attempting to codify morality into law. The liberal rightly chaffs at this violation against his freedom of will.

Spirituality is necessary to give meaning back to life but it has to be a personal spirituality.  Organized religion is at best a symbolic representation of inner truth and to make others adhere to lists of moral commandments is to violate THEIR divinity!

StSanta, others may try to censor you but I welcome your opinions.

Freedom of speech, what a squeak!  

[Jay_76]

 

cmon people it has good intentions, dont slam it too hard

Momma always said the road to hell is paved with good intentions...

 

Jay.

[Fury]

Going back to the original post, what is the problem with a prayer before the innauguration?

Is it

a) any prayer or reference to God is wrong
or
b) the person saying the prayer was a Christian
or
c) none of the above

Before I could even think about commenting on this, I'd have to know what exactly it is we are talking about.

I didn't watch any of the innauguration stuff (boring!) so I didn't hear the prayer -- does anyone know a link where I can read what the fuss is about?

Fury

[Eagler]

here you go:
 www.foxnews.com/politics/012001/bush_speech.sml

I don't believe Bush ever said "Let us pray.." I think StSanta got excited either because of the biblical references made by Bush in this speech or the fact prayers were publicly said by a minister during the ceremony.

Eagler

[StSanta]

funked, my knowledge of the separation of state and church issue in the US is reasonable. And I posted references; Introducing a day of prayer, authored by the state, is very much against the spirit of the founding fathers. I posted a reference for you to divulge in.



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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"We are the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldritch

[AKDejaVu]

 

Deja, I was thinking the same; we're actually sharing a view here. If you bring the alcohol, I'll bring the weed; let's celebrate

I think you meant wulfie.. he's the stoner-student-punk that represents the AKs

I am for the separation of church and state.  However, I am someone who would rather see someone believe in something as opposed to nothing.  I do oppose ANY religious zealot that believes his religion gives him some kind of license over other people.

Basically, I'd rather see people believe in something as opposed to nothing.  I'd rather see people not judged based on what they do/don't believe.  I'd rather see more respect for other people's beliefs.

I don't feel that a prayer by a christian at a state event is disrespectful of other people.  Nor, would I believe a meeting between the President and the Pope, the Dali Lama, or any other religious icon to be disrespectfull to anyone.

Keep government control out of the church.  Keep church control out of the government.  Let the personal beliefs fall as they might.

AKDejaVu

[kidcol]

Well, as my dad said right before he pushed me off the dock "Why not just dive right in!"

I support Bush's wishes to express his feelings of spirituality. Anything that gives me more insight into his feelings than his usual bungled speeches is welcome. Seriously, I really do feel that separation of church and state has a great deal more to do with anybody's right to say what they feel than the right to say what you don't want to hear other people say. This goes for religion, the arts, politics, whatever. That's what this country is about. The right to express yourself in whatever manner you feel is true. And the right to ignore it if you feel otherwise. As far as I can tell, that's what StSanta may have been talking about at the beginning of this. What he may not have realized, or at least expressed, is that we DO have the privilige of telling somebody we don't agree with to go stick it back in their own sock.   and usually there is some kind of finger-gesture as well..  what can I say, we're Americans, we're easily worked up.

-kidcol-

[Kieren]

Anyone think politics are polarizing? Try religion...

Santa-

The President can suggest legislation, he can sign legislation, he can veto legislation, but he cannot force legislation. Any attempt he would make to force any form of legislation that favors one belief over another will be met with an immediate and vitriolic response by Congress. As Jedi states, you wouldn't see Bush as a threat here if you totally understood our process. In fact, our town was just forced to remove the 10 Commandments from the courthouse lawn because of our state civil liberties union. Religion has no protection here, unless it is unChristian...


To any atheist still listening:

Religion=faith in the unseen and unknown- either you have it or you don't. Saying that it doesn't exist because it cannot be proven is naive. I can hit you in the hand with a hammer and it will hurt, and those around you that don't see the strike or feel the pain will still believe you are hurting. It's like saying there is no wind since you can't see it, that water doesn't exist since you can't taste it, or freedom doesn't exist because you can't hold it in your hand.

No matter; some believe, some don't, and some won't because of the cost involved in believing. Religion incurs a responsibility that some aren't ready to face- I know, I used to be one of them. I wanted to hear no reference to religion, as it made me very uncomfortable. I knew I was living wrong, I just didn't want to be reminded. It was more comfortable to stay in my world and deny.

When I finally came to my senses I faced my life squarely and asked God to use me. Now some of you will deny this could have happened, but let me tell you how I know; the moment I asked for forgiveness (a very private moment at home in my bed, not surrounded by minions at church) I felt something. I don't mean just "something", I mean I felt a sensation like I have never felt in my life. The best way to describe it would be to say it felt like a giant finger touched my chest, like the lightest touch of a finger in a bowl of water. From that point a warmth spread like ripples throughout my body, and I felt a sense of peace like I have never known. It was euphoric in the truest sense, and I realized I was weeping with joy. Even to this day I cannot describe the event with justice, as my words fail to rise to the event. I knew God had touched me.

[Eagler]

Kieren

<S>

Very brave post. They used to feed ppl to lions for less, you'll just have to endure criticism from the lost here  

<S>

Eagler

[AKDejaVu]

 

Religion=faith in the unseen and unknown- either you have it or you don't.

Faith in the unseen and unknown is simply faith in the unseen and unknown.  Religion is an organized attempt to place one group's faith as more legitimate or important than another group's faith.

AKDejaVu

[Daff]

", it leaves a sour taste in my mouth because it actively supports one religion and not others. it leaves a foul taste in my mouth that I cannot leave the state church til I am 18, unless I get my parents consent around 15.
It screams of superstition, of the dark ages, of mass grandeur delusion to *force* people into a belief system, *especially* a belief system with such a *violent* history as the lutheran evangelical has had in Denmark."

Come'on..You just dont throw over 1000 years of tradition out in one afternoon. There has only been any significant number of "other" religions in Denmark since the 70's...on top of that, Denmark is probably one of the least religious countries in Europe. I can only remember less than a handful from my school who were really religious.
It seems to me you're more upset because you want to be upset...there isnt anything of of any kind of substance to be upset about.
As for not being able to officially leave the church until you're 18, does it matter?
You can't vote, you can't buy a drink and you can't get a drivers license either until you are 18.
 As for the violent history, well, look back a 1000 years and then talk about violence

Daff



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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"