Rudder and trim use

[Zaphod]

Originally posted by Schutt
On high speed with 109k4 and ki84 i can not pull into blackout with the auto trim feature turned on.

If i fly the same high speed but with elev trimmed up i can pull into blackout.

Now, my personal understanding:
blackout-> higher g than not blacked out-> tighter turn.

So at high speeds there are some planes where you need to trim in addition to full joystick deflection for better turn radius.

That maneuvering at that high speeds cost a lot of E, is not used in fighting or does not make much sense on top of does not make a diffrence for aircombat since you should maneuver at diffrent speed altogether is another point.

I totally agree that the combat trim works great for anyone, eaven experienced players, and everyone starting the game should use it. Only thing i say is that manually overriding combat trim in some few situations can give a slight advantage.

I agree with that schutt....thats one of the few times I go with manual trim when flying something other than a p38.   In other words to pull out of dive at high speeds.  I don't normally think to use it for high speed turning as if I am that fast then I have other options open to me ... usually.

But as far as using it to increase max sustained turn radius at anything less than "lockup" speed or thereabouts I'm not sure that works.  Again I'm basing this on what I "think" I remember in HT's post regarding that and seeing the trim controls work the actual surfaces rather than trim tabs.

For the record I have tried doing this but all it ever seems to do for me is increase my chances of stalling a wing or snap stalling.

Zaphod

[Zaphod]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
HMMMMMMM, ya know zaphod you might have a very good point!!


humbly take back all my 'know it all' gibberish then.



my explanation is certainly what happens in real life.


If the trim tabs dont exist, whats the point in us even having a trim function?




if trim tabs are not modeled independantly, then WHY not??





ill think harder next time, before i post, i geuss.

I don't think its gibberish at all.  I really would have zero idea about a real plane anyway lol.  

I will say this about it, if it seems to work for some folks then it certainly is worth trying out.  It could be joystick related, or it could be that the extra sensitivity works well for some.  Even if it's just a placebo effect then it still has merit as it increases confidence and alot of fights are won or lost psychologically anyway.

It could also be that your dead right too

Zaphod

[Krusty]

I thought someone in the past tested elevator trim in turns and revealed that it was false that it made any difference.

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
regardless of what anyone here says.....NO ONE can deny that using the trim tabs will tighten your turns and get more out of your aircraft in any given scenario.

Hitech would.

Elevators only have "x" degrees of deflection. You pull max deflection it stops at "x" degrees. Now setting TRIM to elevator up may ease the control and forces on the elevators, but they will never exceed "x" degrees. So full trim "up" and full deflection up is no greater than full deflection up and neutral trim.

It might handle better but it will not turn any better.

EDIT: Combat Trim works to level out the plane, so if you're anything other than level you're fighting it (slightly). This means that it dampens elevator control, especially on planes with strong elevator control (k-4, ki84, p38, to name a few!) and severely limits their ability to pull manuvers. Some planes aren't as badly affected (spits love combat trim, 190s do okay with it at times).

Just an aside to other comments on the matter.

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by Zaphod
I don't think its gibberish at all.  I really would have zero idea about a real plane anyway lol.  

If the truth be known most A4M Skyhawk pilots trimmed a hair nose low in case they got jumped. Reason being you unloaded more quickly. As far as, actual trimming of the jet...it had no autopilot so you trimmed level flight then if you touched the stick, for any reason, you had to retrim. Every single time. If you went cross country you'd jam your elbow low against your side and trim the jet so you could hold it with your fingertips with no pressure. Other than nose low I'm pretty sure no one ever trimmed for a dogfight. Kinda makes ya wonder where all the AH trimming is from... Hope this helps.  

Zaphod

[B@tfinkV]

i have come to realise that Aceshigh trim and real life trim are totaly different. never the less i still know for a fact that my trimmed out F4U beats a spit16 far easier than combat trimmed.

[AutoPilot]

It also helps when flying a fully loaded P-47,the use of trim control allows the nose of the aircraft to rise and climb way better than just using auto-climb.When turning around the use of aileron trim allows the pilot to turn his or her plane with out moving the stick and doesn't cause the plane to lose speed because of flat turning.

If you are flying level at full speed and you pull straight up with combat trim the plane will travel farther then start it's climb,if you do the same manuver with trim fully extended it goes straight up right then and there.The 190 is the best plane to try this manuver in,i have made it go from 2-K all the way up too 8-k before it even starts too stall.

I believe in showing new people or anybody for that matter these manuver's for it makes for a better fight when you encounter someone.

But then again that's just my thoughts on it.

[Murdr]

Item 1:  How to use trim.
When trim is set correctly, you should be able to center the stick and have a neutral nose (where it does not pitch, roll, or yaw.  When airspeed increases, lift increases, so you would trim elevators down to keep the nose neutral.  The torque of your engine and prop is a force acting on your plane.  As you increase power, you increase torque, so you would trim aelirons to keep the plane from rolling when you center the stick.  Another force that affects roll is center of gravity.  If you are carrying an external payload that is not on the centerline of your plane, that will have to be compesated for with aeliron trim.  Rudder trim is usually not needed in an undamaged plane.

Item 2:  Manual trim "turns better" than combat trim.
True in part-
First lets consider high speed situations with a couple points considered.  One: To simulate high load forces transfered from the control surface to the stick, AH will not let the stick respond when it is "heavier" than what the pilot can pull.
Two: Combat trim will trim elevators down as speed increases to try to keep the nose "neutral"

So when you are at a high speed with a high physical load needed to operate the stick, you are trying to pull up (and it wont let you) while CT is trimming down
Which goes to Schutt's example.

Now lets consider instantainious and sustained turns.  As mentioned before, CT adjust elevator trim according to your speed.  Lets compair what CT is doing to the elevators, to what you are doing with them in a turn.  You pull a hard break turn and settle in a sustained turn.  To do that, you pull back on the stick up to the point where you feel the onset of the stall, and ease off a tiny bit, and try to hold your elevator angle just below either blackout speed, or stall speed.  As you slow even further, you will have to adjust your bank angle because the slower you get, the less bank angle you have avalible.

If you have CT on, it is adding another varible to what you need to do with the stick.  As you slow CT is trimming more elevator.  So as you are trying to pull the max elevator angle just short of stalling, CT keeps adding more elevator in spite of your efforts.  Furthermore, CT does not act instantainous.  With a fast speed change CT ends up chasing the proper trim setting.

I have no doubt that a player can get used to performing sustained turns with CT just as tight as a player not using CT.  However, I am not convinced that CT does not (slightly) hamper instantanious turn rate due to its not keeping up to changing conditions.

Item 3: Trimming elevator tabs up will give you tighter turns.
With the exception of the high speed/high stickload case.  False.  The stall happens at the wing.  It does not matter if you reach that stall angle with stick only, trim only, or anywhere in between.  The max lift avalible from the wing is still the same

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by Murdr
Item 1:  How to use trim.
When trim is set correctly, you should be able to center the stick and have a neutral nose (where it does not pitch, roll, or yaw.  When airspeed increases, lift increases, so you would trim elevators down to keep the nose neutral.  The torque of your engine and prop is a force acting on your plane.  As you increase power, you increase torque, so you would trim aelirons to keep the plane from rolling when you center the stick.  Another force that affects roll is center of gravity.  If you are carrying an external payload that is not on the centerline of your plane, that will have to be compesated for with aeliron trim.  Rudder trim is usually not needed in an undamaged plane.

This is nice if you're looking for the nice realism of flying a plane from point to point, kinda like an airline pilot, going from Newark to Chicago but is a waste of time in a fight

Item 2:  Manual trim "turns better" than combat trim.
True in part-
First lets consider high speed situations with a couple points considered.  One: To simulate high load forces transfered from the control surface to the stick, AH will not let the stick respond when it is "heavier" than what the pilot can pull.
Two: Combat trim will trim elevators down as speed increases to try to keep the nose "neutral"

So when you are at a high speed with a high physical load needed to operate the stick, you are trying to pull up (and it wont let you) while CT is trimming down

Neither examples listed above hold water. Reason being tuck under is not modeled and for some planes, even with CT on, the nose will automatically rise as the speed increases.

Which goes to Schutt's example.

Now lets consider instantainious and sustained turns.  As mentioned before, CT adjust elevator trim according to your speed.  Lets compair what CT is doing to the elevators, to what you are doing with them in a turn.  You pull a hard break turn and settle in a sustained turn.  To do that, you pull back on the stick up to the point where you feel the onset of the stall, and ease off a tiny bit, and try to hold your elevator angle just below either blackout speed, or stall speed.  As you slow even further, you will have to adjust your bank angle because the slower you get, the less bank angle you have avalible.

If you have CT on, it is adding another varible to what you need to do with the stick.  As you slow CT is trimming more elevator.  So as you are trying to pull the max elevator angle just short of stalling, CT keeps adding more elevator in spite of your efforts.  Furthermore, CT does not act instantainous.  With a fast speed change CT ends up chasing the proper trim setting.

I have no doubt that a player can get used to performing sustained turns with CT just as tight as a player not using CT.  However, I am not convinced that CT does not (slightly) hamper instantanious turn rate due to its not keeping up to changing conditions.

Again your arguement seems true but not necessaily so. If you set your stick to mimick a real planes stick/control surface movement you will find that you have full control over the aircraft within the full spectrum of stick to control surface movement and you can easily adjust the input required to hold the back edge of the flight envelope. The actual throw you put into the stick will instantly be transmitted to the control surfaces.

Why would you say "as you slow the CT is trimming in more back stick"? If you are controlling how much input is going to the control surfaces then as you slow you will also be adjusting that same input required to maintain the back angle you desire by moving the stick that amount. But only up to the point that you exceed the power requirement for the angle of bank in the turn. Unlike 1 to 1 power ratio + jets the nose will begin to drop below the horizon or you will pull enough to exceed the angle of attack. While I know autopilots will chase speeds when in mountain wave it is not the case with CT and turns.  

Item 3: Trimming elevator tabs up will give you tighter turns.
With the exception of the high speed/high stickload case.  False.  The stall happens at the wing.  It does not matter if you reach that stall angle with stick only, trim only, or anywhere in between.  The max lift avalible from the wing is still the same
I haven't figured out how most folks don't know when the control surface has been moved all the way to the stops that you will not actually get a more tighter turn than having trim tabs. At slow speed the trim tabs don't provide much lift and high speeds the pressure from the air over the control surfaces subdue any possible "instaneous" no more than pull the stick to its stops. As far as stall angle, you can exceed the angle of attack at any speed. Higher speeds just means its called an accelerated stall. We actually teach that in the TA so folks can understand what causes the onset of it and how to recover from one immediately.

Suggestion: if you are fairly new to flying in AH2 do not worry about manual trimming. The auto trim feature of the game does an excellent job of making the game easier to learn. Once you begin to get comfortable with your flying abilities and want to experiment with some of the features, by all means, do so. However, just like a child you gotta learn to crawl, then walk then you can learn to run. This game offers a lot of fun at the expense of a steep learning curve but the rewards are pretty high.

Hope this helps.

[Murdr]

This is nice if you're looking for the nice realism of flying a plane from point to point, kinda like an airline pilot, going from Newark to Chicago but is a waste of time in a fight

I believe the question was what the purpose of rudder and trim use was it not?  Basic question, basic answer.  

Neither examples listed above hold water. Reason being tuck under is not modeled and for some planes, even with CT on, the nose will automatically rise as the speed increases.

Yes, the nose will rise in some planes even with CT on when the speed goes beyond the range of the trim.  It depends on what the airframe in question is.  The 109 did get a heavy stick..  The P38 on the other hand had a 'tuck under' force from compression.  In either case, you can manually trim out.  In other airframes the lift produced exceeds the bottom range of the trim...Some times even exceeding the range of the whole elevator.

As I said, "true in part" as in, not in all cases.  The fact that airframes react differently to hight speeds in no way impunes the examples I gave.

Again your arguement seems true but not necessaily so. If you set your stick to mimick a real planes stick/control surface movement you will find that you have full control over the aircraft within the full spectrum of stick to control surface movement and you can easily adjust the input required to hold the back edge of the flight envelope. The actual throw you put into the stick will instantly be transmitted to the control surfaces.

Aces high does not actually have trim tabs.  When you adjust the 'trim' in AH, it moves the resting point of the stick (and therefore control surfaces) in the game.  Fly out of trim in the game, look at the stick at its current rest point, now hit combat trim, and watch the stick jump to a new rest point.  The simulated trim IS actually moving the rest point of the simulated control surfaces, and therefore DOES actually add elevator while you hold your stick at a constant point when slowing in a turn.

I haven't figured out how most folks don't wknow when the control surface has been moved all the way to the stops that you will actually get a more tighter turn.

If you cant take my word for it, what about this guy?

Originally posted by hitech

 Close , in AH it will always give you full diflection as long as you are not limited by stick force. Hence why trim can help pull out of high speed dives. But at slower speeds where it is not limited by stick force, you can always get full diflection nomatter where the trim is set.

And it is imposible to duplicate a real trim system with normal joy sticks. In most planes trim effectivly moves the center postion of the stick. No way to do that with a spring return to center stick.


HiTech

Originally posted by hitech
Modas, isn't a matter of calibration. In a real plane say it is out of trim. And to fly level you are holding the stick 1/2 way back. To trim the plane you move the trim tab to take the pressure off the stick. But when you have it trimed with no pressure, the stick is still 1/2 way back and you can take your hand off it, and it will stay there.


Now with a computer joy stick let say you have the same condition as above. As you trim the plane you will have to move it forward to its center position to maintain the same flight path.

This is what can not be changed via software, because when ever you let go of the stick, it will always spring back to center.

Your request of changing the calibration center is pretty much what AH does now.

The first point in my post was to the original poster, the second and third were related to the other discussions going on.  I am not trying to discourage use of Combat Trim.  In fact I also encourage any fairly new player to take advantage of it while learning the game.  I also seperated opionated commets by posting them in black.  I fail to see what blue text was incorrect.

[DamnedRen]

Yep..too many years in big jets...you trim stick pressure to center the stick. When the plane is in trim for any given angle or level flight the stick is center. In fact, you can trim in perfect GS on an ILS approach and fly it hands off to the flare with stick perfectly centered.

As far as that guy? He flies lil planes

Cheapy light plane sims at your local FBO are spring loaded not real jets.

As far as rudder and trim use I believe it was put forth in the context for combat flight and not a leisurely cross country ride.

And the rise and tuck of a plane does, in fact, negate it as an example as there is no tuck under modeled in the game nor does it happen, even in the 38.

Also, trimming, in the game, allows you to bring your control column to center and allows you to maintain angle while flying hands off. It doesn't really matter where it shows it is as long as its doing what you want at the time. The total throw of the control surface remains the same no matter where you have it trimmed. And, why would you want to fly a plane out of trim to that extent except its nice to hold it so you are in a max unloaded position when it's released. Seeing as how this is a game that isn't as necessary as some would think.

So yeah, you don't get a tighter turn.

And that's why I contend you're comments, while a discussion, do not accurately reflect the trim available/not available and do no more than add to the confusion of a new pilot just trying to get his feet wet.

[AutoPilot]

what's with all the book writing?Nothing like trying to confuse a new pilot.

wtg guys awesome job.

[DamnedRen]

My point exactly.....trace my replies back up the thread. It was meant to give the new pilot a place to start, nothing more. Instead it becomes a hijacked "why is there air" thread with everyone tossing out the history of the earth and big bang theory...if you get my drift.

Again, the original statement was made asking the straight forward statement about why's of rudder and trim use. And, a few straight foward answers to the question were given perfectly without confusing the new pilot.

The rest was pure personal taste. While that's nice it just adds confusion instead of "here's the answer now go try it out".

An old flight saying was told in its most basic form; "Pull stick back, houses get smaller. Pull stick back more, houses get bigger". Pretty simple and very easy to understand.

[Murdr]

Oh well, I reserve the right to post the history of the world when someone else gives an inaccurate version.  The waters were muddied long before I got here.  I guess Ill just stop at that rather than go into snide remarks about backseat moderating and the use of email to send information to the person who asked for it.

[DamnedRen]

Sounds great but I don't think they particularly asked for what you plan on sending them if yer refering to yer posts