Author Topic: Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release  (Read 10732 times)

Offline SuperDud

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #90 on: February 16, 2006, 08:34:12 PM »
I will say that the german stuff is more challenging. But if you fly it smartly, it's no harder to get kills in. Unless you are Nath, Apar or Stang you can't turn on the deck with spits in it. But who's to say that b/c you can't do that it's not accurately modeled? I'm sure you have stories of a 109 outturning a spit, but we have no idea the experience level of pilots and other factors. On top of that I'm sure theres just as many, if not more, stories of allies outturning 109s. Could it possibly be that 109/190s weren't the dream machines in RL that all the lufft guys want them to be?:eek:
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Offline Glasses

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2006, 09:35:20 PM »
Either that or the 50k allied aircrews that got killed during the war sucked!!!

And the German pilots who are the butt of ridicule are that good????

Offline gatt

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #92 on: February 17, 2006, 01:43:49 AM »
1943-45 TODs will be the proof about how instable are our 109s at the edge of the flight envelope and how our 190A are not able to do their job against bombers at high alts. Ppl will choose the allied side becouse no one plays with no fun. Flying on rails even at the edge of the flight envelope withouth even a vibration with Spitfires, P51s, P47, and P38s is much more fun indeed. It doesnt need a rocket scientist to get it.

Now, I'd like to be wrong, and I hope to, becouse actually I wish TOD all the best.
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Wilbus

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #93 on: February 17, 2006, 03:07:16 AM »
Ops forgot about that one Storch, guess we could just go on and on ;)

LOL  @ Bug, you score one point there ;)


Superdud I don't think you have quite understood the discussion. (or atleast mine). It's not a question of a Spit outturning a 109 or a 190. It should, easy calculations of wingload (which is a good start of messuring turnrate but not the only thing that matters) clearly shows the Spit should turn better than the 109 and turn way better than the 190.

No, what bothers me is planes, twice as heavy or even more, easily outmanuevers and outturns the LW planes. And even worse, they are able to go from low speed directly up WAY better then either the 109 or 190. Their stall speed is lower but most noticably they are stable like nothing else even at that speed. Tourque is virtually non existant (most noticable in the F4u which was infamous for lots of tourqe). F4u can go straight up without much problem till it flips over in a friendly way.

I am not saying the 109 and 190's are have the wrong tourqe, I am saying the allied planes has non (well more or less atleast).

Just to bring out an example of how much greater the 109 tourqe is we can take the open beta of 2.0.

The 109 had TOO MUCH tourqe for the auto pilot to function in the normal set climb speed. The trim alone wasn't enough to hold it steady at full throttle. It actually started to feel more like a WW2 bird then just a very fast Cesna with 150hp engine.

How many of you have read about WW2 pilots saying they could never apply full throttle from the start as they would flip their planes? I don't mean flip as in making a ground loop when you forget to apply rudder but actually FLIP the plane.

The tourqe is hardly even noticeable on allied planes. With greater weight in the plane also means easier tourqe handeling, so a P47 with less HP/Weight should have less tourqe (depends on prop diameter aswell btw) then a Spit or 109. Not to mention one of my absolute favorite birds in AH for MA combat. The Ki84. It's the plane in AH with highest thrust to weight ratio, followed closly by the Spit 16 yet non of them has got any tourqe to speak of, not even when they go straight up to 50mph.

Both the 109 and the 190 has got more, and strangely enough the 190 is still the plane that requires most trimming in the entire game, yet it should hardly need any at all, specially not aileron wise.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline justin_g

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #94 on: February 17, 2006, 05:06:03 AM »
Quote
How many of you have read about WW2 pilots saying they could never apply full throttle from the start as they would flip their planes? I don't mean flip as in making a ground loop when you forget to apply rudder but actually FLIP the plane.

Never read about anything like that.

Offline Wilbus

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #95 on: February 17, 2006, 05:33:19 AM »
You should read more Justin.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline TimRas

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #96 on: February 17, 2006, 05:42:23 AM »
Have posted this before, but I think this is what Wilbus means:

"At this slow speed, just a few knots above stalling, it took a lot of right rudder, even though in a left turn. And you didn't dare add power quickly since the powerful engine turning that large prop could make the aircraft roll uncontrollably to the left-the dreaded "torque roll." [ Fred Blechman on F4U-4]
http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/Bentwings.html


"The aircraft stalls like a Piper Cub. Though a wing tends to drop, there isn't the slightest mean streak in it unless you cob the power, which produces a very violent torque roll" [ Jeff Ethell on Spitfire]
http://www.supermarine-spitfire.co.uk/flying.html

"I remember telling everyone I ever checked out in the Mustang to take it up high, lower the gear and flaps, then back it off to about 15 inches with the prop up to 3 grand... slow it down easy to about 130 mph... then SLAM in 61 inches fast. The resulting torque roll might have helped save a few lives on full power go-arounds" [Dudley Henriques on P-51]
http://www.warbirdalley.com/p51pr.htm

Offline Kweassa

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #97 on: February 17, 2006, 05:50:41 AM »
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That was the three chili dawgs for lunch....


 
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 Was drinking a can of beer when saw that, and splurted.  :D

Offline Wilbus

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #98 on: February 17, 2006, 06:15:55 AM »
Thanks TimRas for the examples. I don't quite know how to explain it for people who have never heard about torque before.

Trying again. The prop is spinning in one direction, in order for the prop not to fly away to that direction it needs something that counter its own movement. In the case of airplanes this counterpart is the airplane it self.

Have you ever watched a car dragracing? Take a more normal car (not any of those long specially designed dragsters), let's take a Mustang with a big A** engine. Watch it drive away, even at high speeds you will see one of the front gears that wants rise off of the ground. You will se maybe the left gear/left front side of the car almost leaving the ground. This is the result of Torque.

If you firewall an airplane this is very noticable, hell it is even noticable with a small civilian boring airplane like a 4 seater Cesna. Now take a High performance WW2 fighter, any one of them but specially the light weight, big engined hot rods (109, spit, Ki84 etc). They have the smallest possible airframe with the biggest possible engine installed in them.

Torque is almost non existant in AH.

TimRas posted some perfect examples of what happaned to both F4u's and Mustangs and spits. Three quite different airplanes in terms of weight, one radial and two inlines but they all suffer from torque.

Also read the quote about the F4u a little extra
Quote
And you didn't dare add power quickly since the powerful engine turning that large prop could make the aircraft roll uncontrollably to the left-the dreaded "torque roll."


Which was what I tried to say before. The F4u was infamous for this, big a** engine with a big a** prop produces an enormous ammount of torque. The F4u is infact one of those planes in AH with least torque, easily being more controllable then most planes even at full power or when firewalled.


Sugest you read this link. Another plane infamous for torque, A1 Skyraider (Prop plane used in the Vietnam war).

And one more quote
Quote
One "vice" plagued the Corsair throughout its production run. At low speeds, the huge R2800 engine produced huge amounts of torque. If an inexperience pilot jammed the throttle to the firewall on takeoff, the torque could easily twist the airplane onto its back and "ruin the pilot's afternoon." This tendency earned the Corsair the nickname "Ensign Eliminator." Experienced pilots said the F4U was no more challenging to fly than any other high-performance fighter then in service.


Notice it would actually flip the plane onto its BACK in worst case scenario. Do you think that torque would be friendly when flying at stall speed in a turn (or even worse, going straight up stalling out) and firewalling the throttle?

Try doing that in AH, firewall the throttle and watch your plane roll away nicely. Try doing it in the air and feel very little difference. The torque just isn't there, on any planes really. Although it is, (IMO right now) most noticable on the 109.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2006, 06:27:19 AM by Wilbus »
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

storch

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #99 on: February 17, 2006, 06:43:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by justin_g
Never read about anything like that.
torque roll quite common in P51s and corsairs

Offline Wilbus

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #100 on: February 17, 2006, 07:04:22 AM »
Let me take one more example.

A Helicopter uses a rotor on top of it provide lift. The Rotor is spinning one direction (let's say to the right), this makes the chopper spin left. Helicopters have a tail rotor, ever see what happens when they lose that tailrotor? Go watch to movie Blackhawk Down and you will know what happens :)

Another alternative to a tailrotor is twin rotors (Think P38 in chopper mode). Both counter rotating rotors.



Bad a** chopper :D

More pictures of it here
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline gripen

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #101 on: February 17, 2006, 07:45:51 AM »
Below right: Lama 2 co-axial indoor heli
Below left: Igor the cat, 19 years

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Offline Shifty

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #102 on: February 17, 2006, 07:47:23 AM »
The Cat will pwn the Lama.

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Offline gripen

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #103 on: February 17, 2006, 07:53:38 AM »
Actually that was really a problem during the first flights; I had to land to my hand because two cats were eagerly waiting the "bird" come down. Nowadays they don't give a sh##.

gripen

Offline Wilbus

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #104 on: February 17, 2006, 07:53:43 AM »
Oh yeah, you can see him setting up the sneak attack right now, he'll jump it from out of the sun!
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.