Author Topic: "I'm very, very sorry ... " (Read 2842 times)

StSanta · « **Reply #60 on:** July 29, 2001, 07:56:00 AM »

Just a little semantic message here

How do you deter a rock from rolling down a hill?

You can't. It's dead matter, it has no thought processes that we know of and thus cannot be deterred.

How do you deter a corpse from committing a crime? See above.

Mighty1 · « **Reply #61 on:** July 29, 2001, 05:40:00 PM »

I hate to say it but I agree with Nash.

jihad · « **Reply #62 on:** July 29, 2001, 08:26:00 PM »

He needs a ride in 'Old Sparky'.

Nashwan · « **Reply #63 on:** July 29, 2001, 09:02:00 PM »

What's the legal age for buying or owning a handgun in the US? 18, isn't it?
Why is it so high if kids know at 14 what a gun is for, and what happens when you shoot someone?
Could it be because society, and the law, don't consider them responsible enough at that age to own a handgun?
So at age 14 society says you are not responsible enough to own a handgun, but if you manage to aquire one you are just as responsible for the consequences as an adult would be.
Not responsible enough to own one, fully responsible for the consequences. See the hyprocracy here?

leonid · « **Reply #64 on:** July 29, 2001, 10:03:00 PM »

You know what else? I think we should make a law that just plain eliminates every tenth kid born in the USA. Our society is so violent, I'm sure we'd nip a few of them in the bud. And those who weren't RedRum material that were killed, well, they probably would've been victims anyway. Maybe we could call it, "Cleaning the streets before it gets dirty," or something like that. God Bless America!!!

SOB · « **Reply #65 on:** July 30, 2001, 12:45:00 AM »

Good point Nashwan. The poor kid shouldn't have even been brought to trial. Also, by your logic, if I get my hands on say, a shoulder-fired stinger missile and shoot a commercial airliner down with it I shouldn't be accountable for my actions? I mean, afterall the US government doesn't consider me as a private citizen responsible enough to own one.

You'll have to excuse me now. It's time to head up to PDX for some target practice! Woooohoooooo....beats shootin' squirrels with a bb gun by a mile!

SOB

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: SOB ]

Betown · « **Reply #66 on:** July 30, 2001, 03:20:00 AM »

SOB,
Are all your comments sarcastic because you can't come up with a suitable adult argument or do you just enjoy pissing people off? People who take cracks at my country pisses me off even more. The reason for this is because, I like you are a Patriot.

Over here in Britain, Murders, Rapes, Child molesting, Paedophilia, Burglary and Shoplifting all happen just like in all other countries in the world. Britain is not a Utopia but I like to think that with our anti gun laws we help a lot.

Personally, I am a war freak like the rest of yas

I love to go out into the fields and woodland around my house and shoot rabbits, duck & pheasants. But I think that not being able to own a pistol or an automatic rifle in this country is a great advantage because people don't get killed as much

Until I first started using pistols with the forces I never understood how they worked. Every bastard on the planet knows that you point and squeeze, but everything else eluded me.

How many people of an age between 16,18 in the US know how/have fired a gun in the United States of America?

I think America is a wonderful country. I have visited there and to be honest your Steak Houses RULE! but IMO I find it hard to comprehend how you guys can walk down the street knowing that people around you can legally have a pistol in there handbag, briefcase or tucked into the waistband of there trousers.

That is what I find most frightening about the USA.

Kids that know how to fire guns..... I blame the parents.

mrfish · « **Reply #67 on:** July 30, 2001, 03:35:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Betown:

Over here in Britain, Murders, Rapes, Child molesting, Paedophilia, Burglary and Shoplifting all happen just like in all other countries in the world. Britain is not a Utopia but I like to think that with our anti gun laws we help a lot.

i think what people in britain (and europe in general)often don't understand about america is the sense of urgency we feel when it comes to crime. there's no room for social experiment because it is out of hand. at least where i live.

though europe is no utopia you don't face anywhere near the level of ongoing violent crime as we do in america. almost everyone here has been affected in some very close and relevant way. most people in favor of drastic measures didnt just wake up one day and say "yeah that's it!"...

it's more like the years of exposure to our pointless, corrupt, detached, revolving door legal system and no faith in the law to keep you safe- mixed with the everpresent violence in the streets in the news and everywhere else just make you consider more drastic options.

cops are so afraid of lawsuits they can't function as they should - i am surprised a psychologist doesnt ride along in each squad car to make sure they dont hurt anyones feelings or destroy some criminal's self worth!

i think many in favor of harsh treatment of criminals wouldn't be if they didn't feel we were at that stage. deterrence is the least of my concerns i just want less of those people around period! our jails are spilling over with them as it is- spend a few years here before you write us off as hopeless - or better yet stay home, enjoy your family and avoid becoming a casualty of our crime problem.

Eagler · « **Reply #68 on:** July 30, 2001, 05:54:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Betown:
SOB,

Kids that know how to fire guns..... I blame the parents.

It's not a matter of blaming the parents that a kid knows how to fire a gun. Anyone can pull a trigger. Intentional or accident. That's how very young kids kill, and no I would not condon the killing of a 5 year old who found his dad's pistol and then shot his sibling or friend. I'd charge the father. I'd charge kids/young adults as this 14 year was, when it is premeditated. The uncle of this punk can and should be brought up on charges for not properly securing the pistol used in this crime. If it had a trigger lock and the uncle had the key, possibly in a gun safe, the twerp would have had to find another way to vent his anger, possibly less fatal.

Back to the original post, the reasons given for the "I'm sorry" crap seem just that. What moron lawyer would not push his client to sit up there, maybe with tears in his eyes and confess how "sorry" he is, all for nothing really greater than a reduced sentence. And to say it's up to the judge/jury to decipher if the "I'm sorry" is genuine or not, further illustrates how screwed and flawed the entire idea is. It shouldn't be let's make a deal. It should be, you commit this crime, you do this time/sentence. Crime X = Sentence Y. Period. Takes that whole human emotional crud out of the equation.

ft · « **Reply #69 on:** July 30, 2001, 06:07:00 AM »

IMO, the mistake many people here are making is focusing on whether or not the kid knew the consequences of his actions. Of course he did. Unfortunately, most kids do today.

The kid was displaying psycopathic behaviour. He had poor to no impulse control. But the thing is... neither had YOU as a kid.

Kids HAVE poor to no impulse control - it's an acquired skill. I know I did some dumb things as a kid, knowing the consequences but just brushing them aside. If you claim you never did, well... I claim you are lying.

In a way, all kids are psycopaths. And we all were. The good thing is... we grow out of it. Unless we're sentenced to death first, that is. Until we DO grow out of it, our parents and society must protect us from ourselves. When this fails, the results WILL be horrible.

Yes, fourteen is just on the border where he should have been able to control himself. Here (Sweden) you go to court once you're fifteen, fully responsible around 18. But some kids ARE slower.

Kids live in a fantasy world, where fiction and facts mix freely and both can be brushed aside easily.

SOB, regarding the stinger missile example. We (well, those of us who aren't americans! *grin* ) ban people who have displayed irresponsible behaviour from owning guns. Thus we try to strike a balance between allowing those who NEED guns to have them while keeping them out of the hands of those who would use them to cause harm. It is a calculated risk. Guns WILL be used to cause harm. As with everything, it's a compromise between the cost and the benefits. As for allowing people to have their own private stingers... the benefits aren't there and the potential cost is very steep indeed. Of course you know this but chose to forget it to take easy points. Sorry, mate, no points awarded.

Enough amateur psychology for today. Over and out.

Cheers,
/ft

SOB · « **Reply #70 on:** July 30, 2001, 06:14:00 AM »

BeTown...don't get too bent out of shape. I was just giving Dowding a little bit of toejam. No harm intended.

I hold no grudge against the UK, and frankly know very little about your legal system. Also, I don't really care...I don't live there, so it's none of my business.

I can be a sarcastic bastard tho'. I layed it on pretty thick for Nashwan because I think the point he's trying to make is rediculous. However, I think I made my opinion pretty clear throughout this post...

I'm a proponent of the death penalty. This "kid" was old enough to know what he was doing with that gun, and what would happen after he shot his teacher in the face. Therefor, in my opinion, the kid should be executed.

For vengence? Yes.
So I don't have to pay to keep his worthless arse fed, clothed & sheltered? Yes.
So he won't commit another crime after his release? Yes.

SOB

SOB · « **Reply #71 on:** July 30, 2001, 06:30:00 AM »

I've gotta disagree with ya FT. It sounds like you're saying every kid has the potential to murder someone if they have the opportunity and the access to the weapon. I simply don't believe this to be the case.

I was the new kid in town when I started middle school at the age of 13 and was pretty scrawny and shy to boot. I got picked on a lot. I also knew, because he showed them to me and discussed how I was NOT to touch them without him present, that my father kept a double-barrel shotgun and a 9mm semi-auto pistol in his bedroom. Not once did the thought ever cross my mind to take one of those and use it to shoot one of the bullies.

Fortunately for me I experienced a nice growth spurt in my Freshman year of high school followed shortly thereafter by a job throwing around heavy boxes at the local grocery store and the bullies miraculously disappeared!

I'll admit the stinger bit was a stretch, but it illustrated my point. Just because the kid isn't thought to be responsible enough to own a fiream, doesn't give him free liscence to do what he pleases with one if he gets access to one and then not be responsible for his actions.

SOB

milnko · « **Reply #72 on:** July 30, 2001, 06:34:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Betown:
How many people of an age between 16,18 in the US know how/have fired a gun in the United States of America?

Probably the majority.

Quote

Originally posted by Betown:
I think America is a wonderful country. I have visited there and to be honest your Steak Houses RULE! but IMO I find it hard to comprehend how you guys can walk down the street knowing that people around you can legally have a pistol in there handbag, briefcase or tucked into the waistband of there trousers.

That is what I find most frightening about the USA.

Without those firearms the US would still be a UK colony.

The Bill of Rights included the "Right to bear arms" for the very specific reason that if it ever became necessary to change the goverment by force, the citizens would have the means to do so.

ft · « **Reply #73 on:** July 30, 2001, 07:05:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SOB:
I've gotta disagree with ya FT. It sounds like you're saying every kid has the potential to murder someone if they have the opportunity and the access to the weapon. I simply don't believe this to be the case.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then. That is in fact what I am saying. Every kid has this potential at a young age. Step by step, we learn to control our impulses and our agression and make known consequences part of the equation at all times. Most of us are way beyond shooting someone way before age twelve I think. I may be biased here though as I also grew up using guns for markmanship and had where not to point guns rubbed into me early and thoroughly.

Quote

I was the new kid in town when I started middle school at the age of 13 and was pretty scrawny and shy to boot. I got picked on a lot. I also knew, because he showed them to me and discussed how I was NOT to touch them without him present, that my father kept a double-barrel shotgun and a 9mm semi-auto pistol in his bedroom. Not once did the thought ever cross my mind to take one of those and use it to shoot one of the bullies.

Ditto. Ditto. And ditto. But two years before that? Two years more? I guess our parents knew when we could be trusted and protected us until, but not beyond, that point. Clearly, this kids uncle (it was his uncle's gun, right?) either didn't care or seriously misjudged the kid.

Quote

I'll admit the stinger bit was a stretch, but it illustrated my point. Just because the kid isn't thought to be responsible enough to own a fiream, doesn't give him free liscence to do what he pleases with one if he gets access to one and then not be responsible for his actions.

Of course not. But IMO the legal action in this case should be towards whoever provided the gun. Society and the kid would probably both benefit more from him getting help to grow up into a responsible, mature human. Of course I for one would want him monitored closely as well, making sure and double sure that he isn't an actual psycopath after all. After all, he IS 14. Not seven.

It IS a tough judgement call. But shouldn't "until proven guilty" apply in these cases as well? We grow up gradually. We should have to shoulder responsibilities gradually.

Oh. Unrelated interesting observation here. The pro-capital punishment side seems be convinced that us on the other side are acting on emotions. Since when did revenge and desire for punishment cease to be emotions? I see a lot of that indeed! Food for thought?

Cheers,
/ft

P.S. It can't be the video games. If it was, the Pac Man generation would be spending their spare time in dark rooms, listening to repetitive, monotonuous music and eating pills these days... Waitaminnit... Ooops!

Nashwan · « **Reply #74 on:** July 30, 2001, 11:04:00 AM »

Sob, I don't claim kids bear no responsibility for their actions. In the UK the age of criminal responsibility is 10. Below that age you can't be charged with a crime. Between 10 and 18, kids are treated differently by the legal system, and recieve lesser sentences than adults would. There are degrees of responsibility, and all legal systems round the world recognise that fact.
I am glad to say that the US supreme court, and almost all state courts, as well as the UN, are closer to my position than yours. All ban execution of children, in the US
before age 16, for the UN before 18. From what i have seen, the only country that in recent years has executed a child (officaly) is Yemen, where a 13 year old was publicly hanged along with several adults. Even the citizens of Yemen, a rather remote, fundamentalist, almost medievel Islamic state, were shocked, and the government banned executions of children below 18.
SOB, would you advocate lowering the age for buying a handgun to 13? After all, children that age are responsible enough to be safe with a handgun, according to your views.