Male activists want say in unplanned pregnancy

[phookat]

Originally posted by lazs2
phoocat... what would you suggest?  that if the man says "get an abortion" that it is the magic words that once, absolve him from any responsibility?

Once again, no one is forcing the woman to get an abortion.  What is happening now in this case is nothing short of fraudulent extortion by the woman against the man.  I assume you agree with that.  I also assume you think that is a bad thing.  The man should have the right to absolve himself of fiscal responsibility.  Now it is up to the woman whether to raise her child herself, or get an abortion.  It's her choice, as always.  But she shouldn't have the choice to extort from the guy.  Equal rights.  What if the guy wanted the baby, but she wanted an abortion?  Of course she can get an abortion.  It goes both ways.

[mietla]

Originally posted by lazs2
Perhaps no man should ever be responsible for the welfare of his child unless it was created in wedlock.   That would seem a reasonable thing.

That's the way it used to be for a long, long time.

[dmf]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I wouldnt go that far. I've known a few women who used to get pregnant. just because they could.

Also could have very nearly gotten trapped myself by a chick that thought she was going to intentionally get pregnant without my having anything to say, or even letting me know about it.
Fortunatly for me she spouted off her plans to a mutual friend who in turn told her husband, who in turn clued me in as to her intentions.

I beat feet the hell out of there within the next week.

Damn shame she decided to turn to deceit as I really did like her and something might have eventually come of the relationship had she not broken my golden rule of "Dont make plans for us without talking to me first about it."

Now  the words "Dont tell Tom, But Im planning on getting pregnant again" (She already had one kid by a previous boyfriend) Qualifies in spades the breaking of that golden rule.

In my 44 years I have come to several conclusions. Most women are indeed whacked in the head crazy.

And Women can be trusted about as much as men. No more. No less.
Some you can trust, some you cant.

As for myself. I can be trusted so long as you dont give me reason not to break that trust.
Trust works both ways

Last time I trusted a man once, I even married him had a child and actually thought I'd live happily ever after. I grew up a lot after he cheated on me and got caught, I grew up even more after the divorce papers were signed. Maybe its just where I live at, here 50% of the men only want sex, they'll lie, cheat and burn your emotions to a crisp if you let them. The other 50% are married and won't ever cheat on their wives, or at least be smart enought to not get caught.

[mietla]

I guess I made your 50%.

[dmf]

OK now that I ranted in that last post, let me tell all you guys a bit about women.
1) any girl, woman, female in general, who gets pregnant by mistake, needs a reality check up side her head.
2) NOONE should be able to use abortion as a form of birth control! ( no I'm not an activist).
3) Yes it should be up to both the man and woman, unless either one is useing abortion to get out of their responsibilities.
4) any woman who need that 3 day abortion thing is a slut, and should start chargeing for her services.
5) People should THINK before haveing sex, It takes 2 to do it, so there shoud be 2 thinking about what their doing. Chiuldren are not "things" that can be swept away time.
6) In wedlock or out of wedlock, babies are gonna be born, aborted, and adopted. Its sad, but true. A lot of times children are not wanted. I'm not a religious person, but I believe that babies are a gift form God, that shouldn't be thrown away.

[phookat]

Originally posted by dmf
2) NOONE should be able to use abortion as a form of birth control! ( no I'm not an activist).

This abortion issue is actually is somewhat orthogonal to this thread.  You have two separate things: the determination of fault, and the possible resolutions available.  This case is about the determination of fault.  Was it the guy or girl's fault for getting pregnant in this case, or was it "no fault" (purely accidental).  In this case it is clear that it was the girl's fault.  Now, if you want to make abortions illegal, then there is only one resolution: the girl must have the baby and take fiscal responsibility for him.  The guy might be nice and help out, but I don't blame this guy for trying not to be forced into it, given the situation.

Originally posted by dmf
4) any woman who need that 3 day abortion thing is a slut, and should start chargeing for her services.

Is a woman who uses birth control pills also a slut, who should start charging for her services?  The effect on her "serviceability" is the same in either case.

Originally posted by dmf
5) People should THINK before haveing sex, It takes 2 to do it, so there shoud be 2 thinking about what their doing. Chiuldren are not "things" that can be swept away time.

He *did* think about it.  He asked if she was taking the pill. She deliberately lied about it.

Originally posted by dmf
6) In wedlock or out of wedlock, babies are gonna be born, aborted, and adopted. Its sad, but true. A lot of times children are not wanted. I'm not a religious person, but I believe that babies are a gift form God, that shouldn't be thrown away.

If you believe that, then you are in fact religious.  Nothing wrong with that of course.  But do you believe sperm and egg cells are also gifts from God which should not be thrown away?  Does a single-celled zygote have a soul?

The idea of the God-given gift is a paradoxical one.  Normally you wouldn't give a gift to someone if you already know she doesn't want it. Yet God does?

[wrag]

Originally posted by phookat
This abortion issue is actually is somewhat orthogonal to this thread.  You have two separate things: the determination of fault, and the possible resolutions available.  This case is about the determination of fault.  Was it the guy or girl's fault for getting pregnant in this case, or was it "no fault" (purely accidental).  In this case it is clear that it was the girl's fault.  Now, if you want to make abortions illegal, then there is only one resolution: the girl must have the baby and take fiscal responsibility for him.  The guy might be nice and help out, but I don't blame this guy for trying not to be forced into it, given the situation.



Is a woman who uses birth control pills also a slut, who should start charging for her services?  The effect on her "serviceability" is the same in either case.



He *did* think about it.  He asked if she was taking the pill. She deliberately lied about it.

 

If you believe that, then you are in fact religious.  Nothing wrong with that of course.  But do you believe sperm and egg cells are also gifts from God which should not be thrown away?  Does a single-celled zygote have a soul?

The idea of the God-given gift is a paradoxical one.  Normally you wouldn't give a gift to someone if you already know she doesn't want it. Yet God does?

A gift can be given, even if unwanted, it may be wanted later.  

It's up to the individual as to it's USE.

[lazs2]

phoocat..  I think I am missing your point... you say that it is not about forcing abortion yet you say that a man should be able to decide that a woman have an operation that will kill what she may consider a human being or... let her pay for their child on her own so long as he says.....

 "I don't want to be a father"

Both are too blame.  if some kind of trickery were used and can be proven then the one tricked should not pay.

You seem to believe that all pregnancies out of wedlock are the result of gullible males being drugged and then raped by females wanting that $500 or less a month for the next eighteen years so that they can spend another $1000 a month of their own and raise a child.

How is aborthion or.... maybe forced adoption... not a part of this picture?

How bout.... If the man offers to marry her and she refuses then he doesn't have to pay or... he pays a much lower amount than normal (unless he wishes to visit the child and claim fathership)?

leaving out the men who are tricked....I think some men are mad because even with the pill and abortion.... they are still being held respoinsible for their actions.

Seems some here are saying that getting laid is a very small thing and is not worth them having to take responsibility for the results.

But.... back to trickery... if either party is tricked and it can be proven to be on purpose.... the guilty party shouls assume full liability.

lazs

[phookat]

lazs-- OK, so we are at least agreed that when there is deception, the deceiving party pays.  In a "no fault" accident where both are to blame, you are right that the situation is more difficult when the man and woman disagree as to what should be done.  Right now the woman has all the say in the matter, and can force the guy to take the financial burden, and I do think that is unfair.  One possible solution in that case is to force an equal sharing of financial burden.

Also, I believe the $500/month thing is indeed used by some women to make an income.  Raising a child doesn't cost that much if you don't care.  I don't think that always (or even usually) happens, but it does happen.

wrag-- Sorry, to me that looks like a contrived justification for a pre-existing conclusion.

[StSanta]

Originally posted by dmf
OK now that I ranted in that last post, let me tell all you guys a bit about women.
1) any girl, woman, female in general, who gets pregnant by mistake, needs a reality check up side her head.
2) NOONE should be able to use abortion as a form of birth control! ( no I'm not an activist).
3) Yes it should be up to both the man and woman, unless either one is useing abortion to get out of their responsibilities.
4) any woman who need that 3 day abortion thing is a slut, and should start chargeing for her services.
5) People should THINK before haveing sex, It takes 2 to do it, so there shoud be 2 thinking about what their doing. Chiuldren are not "things" that can be swept away time.
6) In wedlock or out of wedlock, babies are gonna be born, aborted, and adopted. Its sad, but true. A lot of times children are not wanted. I'm not a religious person, but I believe that babies are a gift form God, that shouldn't be thrown away.

1) Her reality differs from your. You're a very interesting person if you're capable of walking other people's shoes 100%.

2) No one should stop me from removing a parasite that's feeding off me.

3) Totally agreed.

4) Any woman who has sex is a slut. It's a dirty thing, sex. Ideally, all impregnations should be done in labs. Sexual standards and morals differ.

5) Absolutely agreed.

6) Babies are a predictable result of certain human interactions. The biology behind it is better understood than aerodynamics. It's the mechanics of biology. A discussion worthy of having is when something goes from being a viable life mass to being a baby. I'm very much undecided on that one.

[wrag]

Originally posted by phookat
lazs-- OK, so we are at least agreed that when there is deception, the deceiving party pays.  In a "no fault" accident where both are to blame, you are right that the situation is more difficult when the man and woman disagree as to what should be done.  Right now the woman has all the say in the matter, and can force the guy to take the financial burden, and I do think that is unfair.  One possible solution in that case is to force an equal sharing of financial burden.

Also, I believe the $500/month thing is indeed used by some women to make an income.  Raising a child doesn't cost that much if you don't care.  I don't think that always (or even usually) happens, but it does happen.

wrag-- Sorry, to me that looks like a contrived justification for a pre-existing conclusion.

On this figure of $500 a month.  Where is everyone getting that?  It can be a great deal more or somewhat less.

Depends on what the Judge decideds after getting information from the child support department.   Sadly for some judges the information doesn't even have to be true or accurate.

The figure can be so high, and IS for some, that they are left with nothing or very little to live on.

Some have committed sucide, one on record even did so on the court house steps, due to the figures imposed upon them.

In a few instantances the figure is more then they make and they find themselves unable to pay and are put in debtors like prison and then when they get out they go right back in because they still haven't paid!

These are abuses that are on record!

And women are disturbed or upset that many males don't want to play?

[dmf]

You can psychoanalize what I posted all you want. Call me religious, maybe I am I don't know.
But I do know this, when ANY of you men can have your emotions totally screwed up by carrying a child, come see me I have some baby clothes that you can have.
Most of the time, if a woman gets pregnant before shes married, the father doesn't want anything to do with her or the baby anymore, so what right does he have to say she needs to have an abortion? But, If a guy is gonna stay with her permanetly, them let them both make the abortion desicion.

As for the original post in this thread about the woman the assured her exboyfriend she couldn't get pregnant, then yea I think he might have a right since she totally lied to him

[phookat]

dmf-- I thought we were having a discussion but you seem to have ignored pretty much everything in my post.  Take a look, might be something there worth thinking about...or maybe not I guess.  Anyway, you say "he might have a right since she totally lied to him"...well, really, I think "might" is far too weak a term.  He *definitely* should have this right since she absolutely defrauded him.  He doesn't have this right and he's fighting to get it.  What sucks about this is that he is being absolutely lambasted in the press, both lib and con.  "Deadbeat dad" spin on everything.  More evidence of mindless sensationalist journalism.

On the abortion point...once again, this is not about abortion, or forcing abortions.  Even if abortions were totally banned, the issue of fair delegation of responsibility would remain, which is what this case is about.  On a side note though...I have noticed that, when the "every sperm is sacred" conundrum is brought up, the extreme pro-lifers fall strangely silent.

On the religious issue...  yes that notion is very religious and again no there's nothing wrong with that.  A "less religious" person might believe that God created the universe, flipped the On switch, and then let it run without any interference.  The idea that God gives personalized individual gifts to 6 billion people in this generation alone (as well as 100 billion individual gifts to other animals, and 500 quingigillion individual gifts to bacteria) is about as religious as it gets.

[bustr]

Roe vs. Wade uses the Privacy clause to say a womans body is private(private property) from government interference. In the privacy of her own body she can kill her child. This protects cannables in the US from prosecution if you read Roe literally.

This man is using the equal protection clause of the 14th amendmant to protect his right to choose to be a father when a woman is cohersing him, lieing, or has made a mistake. After all, 18 years of $500 a month = $108,00.00. Nice money fund for your old age you won't have when your 75 and need an operation or a nurse to wipe your nose.

Ok, based on this bad and spurous interiptation of the privicy clause, I can kill you if you are on my private property. Roe is saying the government has no jurisdiction on her private property.....a womens private property her body...my private property my land. Equal protection under the 14th amendmant.

Only a woman(feminist) would think there would be no consiqunces to killing if she could argue the insanity succesfully to the Supreme Court. If killing is protected for my Ol'lady under the constitution, then its only fair based on the 14th amendmant that I can kill to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's only fair under the Secular Socialist States of America.

Or do most of you ignor how the constitution can be finesed under the right circumstances?

[RTR]

Haven't even read the thread.

But...No.

RTR