Author Topic: Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war  (Read 3787 times)

Offline Udie

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2001, 04:18:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Tuomio:


Ripsnort, the man that says the arguments doesent matter, only the arguments matters. If you can only make your point by picking my age or something like that, is to admit, that you dont have anything to add.
And if you have something to add, but dont want to say that, keep yourself away from the discussion. So, what makes me dumb? My age? I mean, i mustve been read some propaganda, as i dont praise USA?


 So doesn't that count for your "rednecks" comments as well?  


 Silly boy....


Udie

[edit] BTW,  Ripsnort could debate circles around you   he's a very intellegent man. He likes debating in large groups of people, this makes him a mass debator  

sorry rip  



[This message has been edited by Udie (edited 04-26-2001).]

Offline Wingnut_0

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2001, 05:04:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Sturm:
 
"only reason the russians were able to hold at Moscow was from the vast amount of resources given to them from the allies[This message has been edited by Sturm (edited 04-26-2001).]

"Panzer Battles" by Maj Gen Von Mellenthin is a book I read and re-read often for refernces.  Moscow was lost in two parts; 1 due to the under equipped Wermacht (most artillery was still horse drawn and had rough times navigating the country side), the 2nd part of that was Russian defense.  Instead of the Wermacht being able to punch a hole thru and incircle, the Russians would see a bridgehead being formed and fall back to another line.  

Hence when they did reach Moscow, there Russian forces in the area were just simply too strong to punch thru.  There were no lines, only 1 very large Russian army.  

Funked,

Mellenthins book is very anti-Bolshevik near the end, but the vast amount of info describing the campaigns is EXCELLENT.  It remains in my top 5 wartime books.


Sod

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2001, 05:07:00 PM »
I don’t understand how some people  hold the views they do about war. It would seem that some think of war as some sort of glorious event where meaningful things are accomplished with a rational undertaking rather than viewing it for what it is.  
   
Personally I can not think of one war in the history of mankind that was worth debating, let alone worth fighting. Killing one another over, perhaps in too simple a view, what ends up being words is to me absurd.  

Going off to kill and to die in the name of some form of government is absurd as well. I mean think about it for a minute, no matter what you label it or how its run it boils down to living in a fiefdom where you are the peasant and the lords, what ever title they chose to go by, could care less about you or your needs or wants. We are all slaves in the end.

I personally can not imagine a word, or a cause or idea that would be worth even one of you reading this going off and being killed over. Perhaps my hair is too long and it keeps me from understanding the whole concept. Perhaps I partook of too many mind altering substances when I was younger and so can see through the lies. Perhaps I’ve just grown too old, who knows; I tell you though I would much rather sit down and have a beer, share a joke and a laugh with "them" than go out and kill or die over some words "they" don’t really believe in either.
   


"I can tell by your coat, my friend, your from the other side. There’s just one I’ve got to know, can you tell me please, who won?"
Wooden Ships
David Crosby & Steven Stills


Oh and yea I saw that movie too. No that word isn’t worth fighting over. If you think it is, then I think you probably don’t understand what that’s all about … its that other F word ….


[This message has been edited by Sod (edited 04-26-2001).]

Offline Tuomio

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2001, 05:12:00 PM »
Redneck wasnt an insult for ripsnort. Its just the type of people; the "in god we trust" types (who btw can one trust something, that doesent exist?). Easy to persuade with smiling faces.

If ripsnort is such an highly intelligent person, then he should say something intelligent. I just made my point clear and if somebody can point out, that i was wrong, then I WAS WRONG (maybe.. ). I dont lose my face over some BB discussions. I like to argue about issues, but i dont like to argue about me. Well atleast not in this context; face to face, anytime.
Listening is learning and im all ears.

Its just funny sometimes to read about the fury, which many US people talk about their rights to "defend the freedom of the world" but in the meantime their hands are in funding of many guerilla groups in far-east. In fact, somehow the "govt offices" like CIA etc. have always something going on in every place, that has opportunity to make big money or achieve something thats worth of it. Thats the Nazi type of policy, that "results justify the means".

I dont like the idea of "worlds police", when the "worlds police" cant deal with its own social problems, like the worlds largest drug user-rates. How could such an country to make good decicions over the whole planet Earth?

Let the Taiwan to deal with its own problems, since USA will risk MY life by acting like it had a right to do so.

Offline Daff

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2001, 06:24:00 PM »
"It would seem that some think of war as some sort of glorious event where meaningful things are accomplished with a rational undertaking rather than viewing it for what it is. "

Yups..it appears someone is desperate to have "an enemy" again.

Daff

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funked

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2001, 06:42:00 PM »
Tuomio:

   
Quote
I dont like the idea of "worlds police", when the "worlds police" cant deal with its own social problems, like the worlds largest drug user-rates. How could such an country to make good decicions over the whole planet Earth?

I agree 100% with that statement, although I don't think the drug use statistic is correct.  But I don't like my country's troops being sent all over the world to attempt to fix the locals' problems.

However you don't seem to understand the Taiwan situation too well.  Talk to some people from Taiwan and maybe you will understand.  They have democracy now.  An imperfect democracy, but still much better than the totalitarian communist regime on the mainland.  I know people from both countries, and it's pretty clear that a Chinese invasion of Taiwan would be a terrible step backwards.

These people don't want to be invaded by China, and the US has a long alliance with them, which the US is obligated to honor.

It's not like some of the other stupid situations which US has gotten involved with.  This is an old ally and you don't leave allies hanging in the breeze.

Of course if you are from a country which has a tradition of attacking its allies, then maybe it's hard to understand this point.    


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-26-2001).]

Offline agosling

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2001, 06:58:00 PM »
So, Tuomio, what statement could we expect from you if in the future, our Finnish friends and allies find themselves faced with Russian agression (again)?

I don't think Americans see protecting the freedom of the world as a "right" or a "privilege", but rather as a bloody unwelcome responsibility. The US is usually asked, nay, implored to help.

There are certainly some evil, nasty people in the world (everywhere) who manipulate these things to their own interests, but the majority of the American people are just trying to get on with their lives, just like you. They have the luxury of not having any aggressive, powerful neighbours, and are inexplicably willing to help other countries acheive a similar goal.

Have you asked any Taiwanese how they feel about the situation?

Not that I like Bush. But then again, I don't like Gore either. Actually I don't like many politicians. Libertarians are OK, but can't get organised (kind of to be expected).


[This message has been edited by agosling (edited 04-26-2001).]

Offline Toad

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2001, 08:51:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Sod:
Personally I can not think of one war in the history of mankind that was worth debating, let alone worth fighting....
 
I personally can not imagine a word, or a cause or idea that would be worth even one of you reading this going off and being killed over. Perhaps my hair is too long and it keeps me from understanding the whole concept. Perhaps I partook of too many mind altering substances when I was younger and so can see through the lies. Perhaps I’ve just grown too old, who knows;

Perhaps you weren't a Jew in Berlin in '39?

 

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Cabby

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2001, 10:14:00 PM »
I can't believe some of the chickens*** posts in this thread.  Like the idiot who is "siding" with the ChiComs.  

BTW, unlike some yo-yo  further-up this thread, i'm not ANYBODY'S freakin' "slave" and yes, some things ARE worth fighting/dying for.  

If you don't know what's worth fighting/dying for,  and worse, WON'T fight, i suggest you look for a heart surgeon ASAP.

Because it's obvious the heart you have is weak, inadequate, or missing altogether, and you need a transplant.

Cabby

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Sod

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2001, 10:36:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
Perhaps you weren't a Jew in Berlin in '39?

 


Toad;

I very seriously doubt that the millions of Jewish peoples are glad that they were put to death or forced to suffer the nightmare of concentration camps in a war over the words spouted by some  former Private come political leader.

The war was not over the Jews. As far as I can tell the war was fought because of the ravings and promises of glory spouted by a mad man.  Millions of people died over the words he chose to lead his people to war over.  Had those words only been, "We are better than the Jews," I would still think it was insane that millions of people gave their lives over those words.

You point out only the horror of war. The insanity that comes from following the whims of a mad man who would have you die for the words he decides to war over. Religion, government, power, culture, money . All simple words that some mad man chose to start a war over, not one letter of which is worth even one life, save perhaps the life of the mad men that chose to war over them.

No I was not a Jew during 1939 in Berlin, but if I were I would most assuredly  not have thought that the ravings of a mad man were worth the lives of millions of my fellow human beings.  

Offline StSanta

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2001, 11:12:00 PM »
War within five years?

hey rip; I'll buy you a keg of radioactive beer if you're right. If you're not, you give me a keg of the finest microbrew you can find.

Sounds fair to me  .

Except you might aggrevate the Chinese just to win the bet.

"Boeing employee challenges China". I can see it in front of me  



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Offline Maverick

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2001, 11:53:00 PM »
Sod,

If you think there has never been a war worth fighting you are seriously deficient in history. If you think there never will be a war or cause worth fighting for then you lack a basic fundamental part of nature. That is the willingness to risk / lay down your life for something bigger than yourself. You obviously do not care about anyone more than yourself or you would understand the drive that people have that makes them risk it all for another. In fact I cannot think of a more succinct definition of selfishness than the inability to know that feeling. An adult knows the drive to protect something or someone that transcends mere apathy. I cannot fathom that much apathy or lack of caring as you have expressed.

Fortunately there are others who do care about what they believe in to stand up and fight for it. It doesn't take a war to require that effort or sacrifice either. Everyday thousands of Firefighters. Police and Soldiers risk their lives for others they have never known and will never know. They are willing to risk themselves for a greater thing than themselves.

In case I am missing the meaning of your posts I will check in another direction. If you think that war is a waste, I agree. If you think it is a poor method for settling differences between governments, I agree. If you think there has never been a conflict worth fighting over you are sadly mistaken. There have been many conflicts that were worth fighting for in and out of wartime.

Do not fall into the misconception that just because a person joins the military they WANT to be in a war. The people who desire peace the most are those who have to fight in the conflict. Ask any combat Vet, they will tell you that.

Mav
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A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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Offline Toad

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2001, 11:56:00 PM »
No Sod, indeed you weren't. I wonder if you would think there were things worth dying to stop if you had been.

But you spent a goodly portion of your post pointing out that there is NOTHING is worth fighting a war. That's the part I quoted.

It doesn't matter really WHY Hitler took the German people to war. What matters is that he and they had to be stopped.

Unfortunately, in order to stop folks like that, other folks that have absolutely no interest or enthusiasm for going off to war end up going off to war. And fighting. And dying.

I took your post to mean that there is NOTHING for which you would fight and, if you were one of the unlucky ones, die for.

Is that what you meant to say?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Loyalist

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2001, 01:11:00 AM »
You can't compare China now with China from the Korean war era.  The Peoples Republic of China was only a few years old at that time.  They have had 50 years to build up a massive, and I mean massive, military.  

It would be World War III.  

United States
Britian
Canada
Australia
France
Germany
 
vs (Russia would probably remain neutral)

China
North Korea
Iraq
Syria
Cuba

China has the largest military in the history of this planet.  Their soldiers are very well trained and very dedicated to their cause.  Their technology rivials the U.S. and you can be sure they have many weapons being held secret.

America has superior air and naval power.  With Britian's help their ground troops could rival China's.  

Nuclear war? I highly doubt it.



Offline Midnight

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Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2001, 02:33:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Betown:
If the US went to war with china. What would happen to Saddam? While America plays war games saddam will be biding his time and eventually he will strike...

I think if we actually went to a full-scale war with Saddam, we would bomb the hell out of Iraq just to make sure they didn't get any ideas. OTOH, If we went to war with China, I think Saddam would step right in to back them up, maybe.

Midnight