Author Topic: Atheists Least Trusted  (Read 6468 times)

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2006, 12:00:01 AM »
You guys are reinforcing the negative image many people have of atheists with every sarcastic, chip-on-your-shoulder, narcicistic post you make.

Seagoon has never been anything but gracious and willing to exchange views in a respectful manner with anyone of a mind to do the same.  

The same cannot be said of the people who cruise these boards thumbing their noses at those who are religious.

The death of civility and manners is but one casualty of moral relativism.

Offline Debonair

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« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2006, 12:02:24 AM »
its better than immoral relativism

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2006, 12:07:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
What I will never manage to grasp is the utter disdain that so many athiests have for Christians--ever see those car emblems with the Darwin sign inside the fish? WHAT possible threat could these peeps see from Christians that they feel they must insult their belief system? Christians are made fun of in the press, in movies, tv shows... if they are such utter idiots for having such an outdated, obsolete belief system, why are they important enough worry about, and what the F does it matter what they think?


Lots. I work with predominantly catholics. I have to be careful what I say in my opinions and even words. Even saying "oh god" has had me accused of 'blasphamous language' (that and the occassional jc). They have many catholic icons around their desks, when I displayed some buddhist material that was also frowned upon.

Christians (in NZ) are hard at work trying to push laws upon me and other kiwi's in line with their biblical beliefs, and against some of my common sense beliefs. These include some very discrimintory laws.

I also have a broad base of relatives who've been fleeced by christian churchs out of a good deal of money on both sides of the family. I don't care whether you argue if they're christians or not, thats justs pedantics. Around the corner from my home is a neighbourhood thats primarily polynesian. The churchs there literally tax their 'flock', if you don't pay you're publicly shamed... and this is an area with high poverty levels. Its disgraceful.

Not all, but most christians are to atheists what muslims are to christians. I see double standards, hypocracy, and trying to force beliefs onto others. There are exceptions, and those people I would say would've been good people had they been christian or not.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2006, 12:28:53 AM »
What's wrong with showing a little respect for the feelings and beliefs of others?  Would you deliberately use the "n" word around blacks?  What about using words such as wop or dago or chink?

Unless you are a complete putz of course you wouldn't.

This isn't a freedom of speech issue.  It's a character issue.  What we say and do around others reflects our inner character.  Why should a person of an upright character feel put upon because they have to show restraint around others?

By the way, if you don't like the types of laws being pushed by Christian groups then organize your own group and oppose them in the legislative system.  That way, they can push for laws reflecting their views of morality, and your group can push for laws reflecting your views of morality.

There's nothing wrong with either group doing that.  All laws are legislated morality anyway.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2006, 12:56:54 AM »
Two way street.

To be dealt with summarily, dismissed as irelevant because of irreverence is prejudice.. plain and simple. The answer is not in doing the same.. pre-judging a mans worth based on his state of godliness is no way to advance any agenda.

Again.. there's something missing from Seagoons logic train, and I'm really unwilling to accept what he said at face value till I hear out what on earth (or elsewhere) he's actually talking about.
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Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2006, 01:51:30 AM »
"Athiest = There is no god. Agnostic = As far as I know, there is no god. Yeah? Not a trick question, just never been really clear on this one."



Agnostics, Atheists, and Deists are all similar in the sense that they don't believe in any of the major religions.  The long description can get complicated (there are different definitions depending on who you ask), but here's a quick list.


Atheist = disbelieves in the possibility of any sort of god.  

Agnostic = Can't confirm or deny the existance of god, but is convinced that such a power/being, if it exists, has no effect on daily life.

Deist = Believes god exists, but has no effect on daily life





J_A_B

Offline culero

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« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2006, 02:05:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
... quick question for yah Seagoon.

If a man is a 'pagan' his word is no good? he is not charitable? his motives are suspect as self-serving?


Well, at risk of seeming that I feel I may speak for Seagoon (I don't, he's obviously capable of doing so on his own) I would like to point out he never said any such thing.

As I see it, he said that he's experienced an improvement in his outlook on life and a resultant improvement in his trustworthiness since he changed from being a pagan to being a Christian. It doesn't necessarily derive that all pagans are in his opinion not trustworthy.

I have as little respect as anyone here for religious bigots. However, although some who profess Christianity fall into that category, many don't. I know folks personally who've experienced the same sort of improvement that Seagoon describes as they also decided to be Christians.

I'm about as pagan as you can be, yet I feel my personal morals are as good as anyone's. I don't see any conflict here.

culero
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Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2006, 02:27:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Lots. I work with predominantly catholics. I have to be careful what I say in my opinions and even words. Even saying "oh god" has had me accused of 'blasphamous language' (that and the occassional jc). They have many catholic icons around their desks, when I displayed some buddhist material that was also frowned upon.

your point being? I am Catholic and I swear like a drunken stevedore. Plus I have a statue of Winnie the Pooh hitting Budda with a stick


I also have a broad base of relatives who've been fleeced by christian churchs out of a good deal of money on both sides of the family. I don't care whether you argue if they're christians or not, thats justs pedantics. Around the corner from my home is a neighbourhood thats primarily polynesian. The churchs there literally tax their 'flock', if you don't pay you're publicly shamed... and this is an area with high poverty levels. Its disgraceful.Sorry but the words of PT Barnum come into play here now as well, it could just as well have been Nigerians looking for help to claim a dead relatives estate


. I see double standards, hypocracy, and trying to force beliefs onto others. There are exceptions, and those people I would say would've been good people had they been atheists or not.edited  
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2006, 03:36:02 AM »
I'm a little late in this discussion but Chairboy you hit the butt of the nail with that top ten list. :aok
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Offline hacksaw1

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« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2006, 03:38:19 AM »
I only speak for myself in the following response to:

"Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian"

10. The folks I know that consider the Bible trustworthy do not deny the existence of "gods" but realize that those entities are subservient to an Eternal Omnipotent Creator. I personally don't feel outraged when someone denies the existence of God, seeing I once denied His existence myself.

9. I don't feel insulted or "dehumanized" since I once also believed that evolution was an adequate explanation for the diversity of life. But on further investigation I see many "just-so" stories that don't provide a convincing answer. After encountering the Eternal I was willing to reevaluate my views of human origins. BTW, the Bible doesn't claim dirt is the sole source of being for humans, rather, it was an instrument used by the Creator.

8. I obviously don't know the people you do, but I don't laugh at polytheists, nor do I laugh at anyone with alternative views of reality. When one comes to the conclusion that there is an Eternal Omnipotent Creator, and that the said Creator is also the Eternal Communicator, then there is no difficulty with the concept of the "Word" or "Expression" of God being the fullness of God.

7. My face doesn't turn purple by atrocities in the name of Allah, even though I currently live in a region where such events are pretty common. Nor am I pass about any event of Scripture that tells of destruction of human life. On the other hand, I once served in the USMC, and I understand that during war loss of life is not only likely, it is part of the goal of war in the short run, as regretful as that may be, so that in the long run people may live in peace. At least that is the typical goal. You'd have to reread Exodus and Judges to see the connection.

6. I don't laugh at Hindu beliefs, or at Greek claims of interaction with the gods. When a former skeptic like me does experience God's presence in a powerful, unforgettable way, and on more than one occasion, then there is an awareness of exactly what Scripture intends when it says the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary.

5. Dates of earth history. When I was a kid, dinosaurs were cold-blooded, tail-dragging, terrible lizards, and life arose on earth 1.2 billion years ago. These days dinosaurs have a different metabolism and posture, and life now goes back at least 200 percent farther to 3.7 billion years ago. My how evolution has evolved in only a few decades! Should anyone trust "science" as a "final" answer to questions about life?

4. The folks I know that consider the Scripture trustworthy grieve that few people seek to know the Eternal. Actually there are only about a half-dozen major worldviews promoted by humanity: atheism, deism, theism, animism, pantheism, panentheism and possibly another one or two. It would probably take less time to fairly evaluate these views than it would to fairly evaluate the performance of the 70 planes offered by AH. It is not a matter of God sending people to hell. It is a matter of people making a choice to ignore God's offer for eternal fellowship with him. If a person continually resists or willfully ignores God's offer, then what should God do? Force such a person to have eternal fellowship? The final state of such people who refuse, btw, is also described as being in "outer darkness" and not just fire. It is an axiom of Scripture that people in all stages of life, from all backgrounds, will be fairly judged by the Eternal, who knows the true intents of everyone's hearts. The alternative view that everyone dissolves into endless oblivion has its problems. Hitler, Stalin and Mao receive no punishment but share the identical fate as their multiplied millions of victims. That's tough for me to accept.

3. On the one hand, actually there is plenty of evidence in science, history, geology, biology, and physics to persuade me of the claims of Scripture, because of my worldview. On the other hand, although there is no short supply charismaniacs, that of itself does not prove that all such spiritual experiences such as tongues are invalid. Discernment is crucial, just as is also demanded in Scripture.

2. Prayer for me is not solely, or even most importantly, asking for things I want. For me prayer is a time of communion with the Eternal, to conform my desires to his. I certainly do ask for God's hand to work in my life. Several times answers were not only forthcoming, but immediate. Not every prayer I've prayed has received the answer I was looking for. But I do not look at God as turning away from me. Rather, I need to make sure my requests are fully attuned to what God desires. Prayer is partnership with the Eternal, not the power of positive thinking, nor begging a celestial Santa for gifts.

1. Well, as I said, I don't know the people you know. But I'd say the folks I associate with who consider the Scriptures trustworthy know quite a bit more about them than folks who don't study them.

Regarding the lack of credibility of atheists by "Americans" (if you actually read the report at the link) I'd say such outspoken atheists as the late Madelyn Murray O'Hare and Richard Dawkins do not help the cause of atheism. I was once an atheist myself, though not militant, and certainly not hostile towards Christians or other religions. I suffered no personal credibility problems.

Best regards,

Cement

Offline moot

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« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2006, 03:38:31 AM »
Least trusted to/for/___?

Maybe atheists just tend to know better than pretend anyone is out for anything else than themselves, moral posturing or not.

Pigeonholing is great when you're not willing to distinguish people on a case-by-case basis, even if they are mindless herd drones.

Quote
Several times answers were not only forthcoming, but immediate

No offence, but that's happened to me while I just twiddled my thumbs.

Your #4 has some supersized anthropomorphism.

Your #5 discredits science's credibility for being a perpetually sharpening theoretical system?  
Science and Religion don't overlap, there's no conflict unless you believe in magic being part of concrete reality, i.e. the partial or total absence of consistent causality.
Arguing anything is contrary to magical reality.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 04:09:23 AM by moot »
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Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2006, 04:43:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B
Agnostics, Atheists, and Deists are all similar in the sense that they don't believe in any of the major religions.


Wrong. One of the largest religions in the world is technically agnostic... maybe atheistic even.

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2006, 04:49:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
What's wrong with showing a little respect for the feelings and beliefs of others?  Would you deliberately use the "n" word around blacks?  What about using words such as wop or dago or chink?


Yet they do have bigoted views of the world. They make it quite clear on their views, but I'm a little more thick skinned than them and not as petty. As demonstrated here its fairly common for many christians to assume if you're not in their special club your either immoral, bad, and going to hell (which is kinda funny trying tell an athiest his going to hell). Plus they're hypocritical, they'll complain about an athiest saying 'blaspheming' but if one of the 'flock' does it... well it was just a slip up aye ;)

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2006, 05:11:05 AM »
"Wrong. One of the largest religions in the world is technically agnostic... maybe atheistic even"

Are you referring to Buddhism?  I didn't mention it since it's virtually a non-factor within the USA, and some people don't even define it as a religion at all.  There are other exceptions to what I said as well, but my goal was to try to keep my post short rather than write a book on the subject.




J_A_B

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2006, 05:11:06 AM »
Quote
On the other hand, I once served in the USMC, and I understand that during war loss of life is not only likely, it is part of the goal of war in the short run, as regretful as that may be, so that in the long run people may live in peace.


What happened to allmightyness? Why do things _need_ to be done in certain ways? God is not tied to the realities of the human world. The believers should stop at these first simple things before pondering about creationism or whatever.
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