Author Topic: Church and state separation, part Deux  (Read 2752 times)

Offline StSanta

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« on: January 29, 2001, 03:55:00 PM »
 http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/29/bush.faithbased.01/index.html

"Faith based" is the latest political term for "religious". Good move, but not smart enough for even the dumbest of guardians of the wall.

From the article:

"...including his proposals to allow religious groups to receive federal funding
for the provision of vital life and social services to the needy."

"The president also signed an executive order directing five Cabinet-level federal agencies to investigate how faith-based groups could effectively participate in a variety of government aid programs."

""My administration will look first to faith-based and community groups," he said. "We will not fund the religious activities of
any one group, but when people of faith provide services, we will not discriminate against them.""

""For the purpose of the state and the church, and the principle of separating the two with a decent distance, this is a very bad idea," said Barry Lynn of the advocacy group Americans United for Separation of Church and State."

"Bush aides said safeguards would be in place to make sure the  religious groups do not use the money to proselytize. "This will not be funding religion," Fleischer insisted. "It is not the religious aspect of what they that is getting funding, it is the community service aspect. These are not going to be programs
that preach religion, these are faith-based programs that help people improve their lives."
 

With all this defense, and all the words, for a realist, it is nonsense - how do they stop someone from saying "God is always with you", "Jesus loves you" or something akin to that? They cannot - they can stmop out preaching *if they are intent to do so*, but nothing Bush has done so far (including cutting funds to family and aids planning in Africa, and cancelling Clinton's order to give Africans access to cheaper aids medicine) indicte that the state is willing to do so.

The fact of the matter is that every major religion in the world has as a goal to save as many as possible. Put in less political terms; to expand and assimilate. Mixing bare life NECESSITIES, such as food, with the spreading of the religion is inviting prozelytizing. I've seen them at work, the drug addicts here are Jesus people and it's an extremely effective way of spreading the Word (or words).

It's another controversial move by the man who claimed to be a "uniter, not a divider". It further removes him from his claim. Had he been a democrat, some of you chaps would call him a "f*cking liar". Then again, he might only be following a family tradition (read my lips)  .

Post is a cheapshot, but even cheapshots are worth taking. You rep dudes have taught me that  .

if someone wonders why I appear to favour the democrats more, it's because in the past they've been more reluctant to do stuff like this, they largely support my position on abortion and are closer to waht I see in Europe. OTOH, they have some major screwups. It's just that withn a lot of reps here, *someone* has to play the villain. And, dudes, I am the villain  .

Flame away; I am untouchable.

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Offline Fury

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2001, 04:15:00 PM »
Other quotes from that same article:

"The legislative portion of the president's plan -- which would allow religious groups to compete with secular organizations for federal dollars to pay for after-school programs, drug treatment counseling, meal assistance and other programs -- will be sent to Capitol Hill Tuesday, Bush said."

"The new White House office will be charged with distributing billions of federal dollars to a variety of religious groups and charities over the next 10 years. In essence, the groups would be competing with a number of established organizations -- including federal agencies -- for a set amount of tax dollars."

"Aides said some faith-based groups already receive federal funding under the 1996 welfare reform law, and that these groups have not violated the constitutional separation of church and state."
======================

I can't attack or defend this one.  My gut reaction was the seperation issue, but I'm totally on the fence with this one for now.  I really wish the article would have given some concrete examples of which faith-based groups have been receiving Federal funds for 4-5 years already.

Fury

Offline leonid

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2001, 04:20:00 PM »
Such talk on the part of the Bush administration is in violation of the 1st Amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, ..."

It really is nothing but wishful thinking on Bush's part.  Such a bill would die in the Supreme Court if it ever got through the Senate.  And if it does actually get through everything, then the country of our forefathers will be a thing of the past.

"Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's."

(Incidently, in a Gnostic version of the Bible, think the Gospel of John, this quote is "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, unto God what is God's, and unto me what is mine."  Interesting version.  Gnosticism was eventually proclaimed heretical by a small, but powerful sect of Christianity that had the full backing of the Roman Imperial government.)

[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 01-29-2001).]
ingame: Raz

funked

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2001, 04:23:00 PM »
"when people of faith provide services, we will not discriminate against them"

What part of that don't you understand?

Offline Jimdandy

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2001, 05:08:00 PM »
"We gotta keep'um separated..."  

Offline Kieren

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2001, 05:23:00 PM »
I think you all know where I stand on this.  

Offline jedi

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2001, 06:21:00 PM »
Hehe well, we ARE supposed to be a "God-fearing" country, but you guys sure seem more afraid than most...  

I would think you'd wait until something more specific is announced before we all start dodging pieces of falling sky...

P.S.  I think you need to look up "respecting."  It has more than one meaning, and I'm not sure everyone always chooses the right one.  Some might interpret that line as "Congress shall make no law pertaining to a religious establishment."

Offline leonid

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2001, 06:43:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by jedi:
P.S.  I think you need to look up "respecting."  It has more than one meaning, and I'm not sure everyone always chooses the right one.  Some might interpret that line as "Congress shall make no law pertaining to a religious establishment."

Heh, well, if you try to pass a motion/bill that allows religious-based groups to receive federal funding, then it is 'pertaining to a religious establishment.'
 
ingame: Raz

Offline StSanta

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2001, 07:54:00 PM »
funked, it's very hard not to understand the constitution in terms of no government support for religious organisations.

Secular organisations are by definition no in violation with the constitution on this. You're comparing apples and oranges. And you know it  .

Protect it dudes; you got it; I don't.

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Offline Toad

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2001, 08:16:00 PM »
Do we need to do more? Yes, clearly.

Should we try new ideas? Why not? We haven't solved the problem yet.

-- which would allow religious groups to compete with secular organizations for federal dollars to pay for after-school programs, drug treatment counseling, meal assistance and other programs

Keyword in there is "compete". Competition improves the breed. Compassionate caring is what religion touts as "their thing". Let them prove it, if they can.

They've got their baggage, too. There's an awful lot of sticky fingers in that God business. Some of the donated money never makes it out of the preacher's hot little hand. THAT would be the real problem, I think.

As far as "how do they stop someone from saying "God is always with you", "Jesus loves you" or something akin to that"...

how do you stop someone from saying "have a nice day", "may the force be with you" or "You must find the answer within"?

In other words, who gives a rat's butt what they say when they say hello or goodbye? The question is "are they doing any GOOD?" A salutation is just a salutation.

Once upon a time I regularly helped out a Catholic nun who made it her "thing" to feed the needy. I don't ever recall any proselytizing; we just fed the hungry. If they wanted to know more about the religion, they got a pamphlet that pointed them to the neighborhood parish priest and we went on cooking and serving. That woman was as close to a true angel as I have ever known.

Besides, it's open to any outfit that wants to COMPETE to do good, right? No religion is getting "most favored" status like our GOOD FRIENDS the Chinese.  

..and we'll have lots of guys like Leonid and Santa running around to check and make sure no one says "Jesus" out loud!  

"Arrest that man!"  

 
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Kieren

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2001, 09:31:00 PM »
Good ol' Santa, kicking this up again.  

Toad brings up a good point. How does someone witness effectively? I know from personal experience (my long years growing up in an atheistic family) is that the harder you push, the harder you get pushed back. Be a good person, let your faith be known, and if anyone has questions, you answer. This is the way my church does it. Others are different.

I think if good is done, good is done. I wouldn't advocate shutting down charities just because they didn't support religion, why should I do the opposite? By the same token, if charities such as the United Way are subsidized, I think that is great. I don't know of any affiliation to religion, though there may be.

I give to the bell ringers at Christmas, you know, the Salvation Army. I don't even know what religion they are affiliated with, and don't care. They do good.

I know the point is to avoid entangling the government with a particular religion, but are we saying that a religious charity deserves no more support than a secular one?

I understand where people can be concerned by this, I suppose. I don't agree with it, but I can see a point.

Offline Nash

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2001, 10:14:00 PM »
We're talking payback for a *huge* voting block... nothing more.

Within a week (a WEEK!)of taking office we get abortion and religion. Abortion and religion. Like the people wanted someone to finally step up and take charge of these issues. Save us from the infideles!!

"Say Jim, nice new car. But have you really thought about the government's role in abortion and religion lately? I mean, we gotta DO something - and FAST!"

"When people of faith provide services, [he]will not discriminate against them", yet a week prior he moved to bar U.S. funds to international family planning groups involved with abortion. Uhh... OK.

HUGE misstep, politically. At this rate, an announcement will be made, and February will heretofore be known as Automatic Weapons Month.

...And at this rate, the guy will be unelectable by the end of March. I don't think people signed up for quite this.

He's pretty hardcore.

Offline Fatty

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2001, 11:52:00 PM »
Welp, I gotta side with the left on this one, in fact it's quite contrary to many of the reasons I'm a republican.  I don't think the government needs to be handing out money any more than it already is, much less to religous institutions.

Indirect aid to these are fine (tax breaks, both to the institution and to contributions), but when a check is cut from the gov't, I'm a bit wary.  Yeah, some may say vouchers are the same boat, but it's not.  That's a parent's choice on how best to educate their children, if, and only if, the public system has completely failed them for more than 3 years and an alternative public school cannot be found.

Nash is right on the voting block.  It's sad though, really.  There's a reason Pat Robertson-like candidates get murdered in the primaries.  It's because they're not as big a voting block as they appear, they just have a lot of clout. (Can I plug campaign finance reform again here?)

Offline StSanta

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2001, 12:08:00 AM »
Toad:
Keyword in there is "compete". Competition improves the breed. Compassionate caring is what religion touts as "their thing". Let them prove it, if they can.

Your constitution does not allow state sponsored support for spreading the word. THAT is the issue here.

The moment you connect essentials such as bread to an evangelical group, WHAT do you have? Some people that are forced to listen to the word as they get their food.

Even a line such as "Jesus loves you" when combined with state sponsored food program would infringe on the separation of church and state. Think about it - you come for bread, and with it you get gospel. Does not sound good to me.

They've got their baggage, too. There's an awful lot of sticky fingers in that God business. Some of the donated money never makes it out of the preacher's hot little hand. THAT would be the real problem, I think.

Indeed. There are many examples of corrupt church officials. Not that it matter in this particular discussion, but it's very true.

how do you stop someone from saying "have a nice day", "may the force be with you" or "You must find the answer  within"?

In other words, who gives a rat's butt what they say when they say hello or goodbye? The question is "are they doing any GOOD?" A salutation is just a salutation.


Who cares if they remove your right to bear arms Toad? We're talking about a violation of  your constitution. It seemed guns mattered; this should matter too. All would be fine if they could do the job without any attempts to win a few souls. And with freedom of religion comes *freedom from religion* - how can someone hungry get that when the Jesus Squad is handing out the bread?  

Besides, it's open to any outfit that wants to COMPETE to do good, right? No religion is getting "most favored"
status like our GOOD FRIENDS the Chinese.


Your constitution is quite clear on the matter; it mentions religion, in general and not a specific one. I wouldn't mind if all they did was do good, but I somehow doubt they can quell their enthusiasm. Especially the evangelical denominations who're ordered by God to spread the word. And, quite frankly, I am beginning to doubt Bush's reassurances. For some odd reason, I believed people when they said he was good at uniting, not dividing.

If I was the only one who saw a possible violation here, I'd shut up. But Bush has really put a fire under the pants of various freethinker groups (including, interestingly enough, theist freethinkers).

What is also interesting is that there is a coalition here of both theists and non theists - the theists do NOT want the government to start "buying control" so to speak, over the churches. Seems sensible to me for the churches to stay clear of the government when they can.

I just think you need to be careful. In so few days, Bush has made some pretty radical changes and if not thrown a few punches with a sledge hammer at the wall, at least approached it with one in his hand.

..and we'll have lots of guys like Leonid and Santa running around to check and make sure no one says "Jesus" out loud!

"Arrest that man!"


LOL! And I'd get paid by the government too! What a dream. What a job. You're right toad; the US IS the land of opportunities  .

Yah, me and leonid will tag team them  .
 


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"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch

Offline Toad

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Church and state separation, part Deux
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2001, 12:27:00 AM »
Hey Santa...

You ever watch our Presidential swearings in?

Even Billy Clinton put his hand on a *GASP* BIBLE!!! and swore an oath.

Check our money...it says "In God We Trust".

Our witnesses in court swear to tell "the whole truth..so help me God".

There's more examples. Main point it the Republic hasn't fallen yet given these major   violations of our Constitution.

Now if Bush had said that the new national religion was going to be Nifurism that would be a bit of different situation wouldn't it?  

Now I DO NOT think this thing is going to get through Congress. Don't really care, either.

If it did, I am absolutely SURE that the <cough> loyal public servants there would put in guidelines that prevent "serving the gospel with the bread". "Violate the guidelines, lose your money" type stuff.

I'll tell what I DO like about it:

At least someone is thinking "outside the box" for a change. Nifur knows that social welfare programs from DC seldom ever do what they are supposed to do.

Oh my GAWD!!! Did I say "NIFUR" twice? Does that violate the "separation" clause of the BBS?

 

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 01-30-2001).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!