How effective are dive bombing buffs? Are they really a problem?

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
Funny, I know exactly the bomber pielut you're talking about too. I looked up his score just to be sure, and whaddayaknow... He's the perfect example of everything that's wrong with bombers in AH.

BTW, Urchin's being sarcastic.

Hmmm, does his name mean a large defensive structure? If so that's pretty funny..He is the epitome of the dive bombing buff dweeb...


Zazen

[hubsonfire]

[thndregg]

I never dive with level-bombers.  Sinking a CV with B26's at 8K is no problem.

[Docc]

Originally posted by ChopSaw
See?  That's the point I'm curious about.  It takes a flock of dive bombing Lancs to down a CV.  I can down two CV's with one formation of B-24's when used as level bombers.

Seems from that, level bombing is far more effective.  I know they do, but I can't figure how these guys are getting through a fighter screen and 5" guns.  Nobody manning the guns?

As another one who defends against hordes a lot, cv guns become more useless the higher the enemy is.  A flight of level bombers 3000 AGL (according the the range shown in the 5"gun) is very tough to hit UNLESS they divebomb you, but the bombs glide in for hits even after the bombers are dead.  In a fighter the actual height of these same bombers is more like 6000-10000.

IRL early radar showed the height of the enemy giving a CAP time to prepare.  Ours doesn't.  You have to wait til you visually see the dot (about 10k away) and guess its height.  The speed differential between fighters that have to both climb and catch up to the bombers is too narrow to make it a worthwhile defense for a CAP.

Bottom line?   Our acks are not capable of enough range and our radar does not give us the true picture making it too easy for the offense.  

Simple solution?   Harden ALL targets by a factor of at least 4 and make acks killable only by bombs.

[Docc]

A CAP only tells the enemy where your cv is and cv planes do not have much success against bombers when only armed with machine guns.

[Pooface]

Originally posted by Docc
Simple solution?   Harden ALL targets by a factor of at least 4 and make acks killable only by bombs.

silly idea. im all for hardening structures a little more, but the only ones that really need to be hardened IMHO are the field strats like ord and fuel. im fed up of having every front line base being porked by some lame typh pork dork.

you can kill a hardened concrete building with guns lol. crazy. now ack, they shoulnt be hardened really, because the gunner in RL isnt protected...

one cannon round would kill him, so the ack is fine as it is. the real problem is the things like fuel and ord, and maybe harden the hangars just slightly

[Docc]

Forget real life.........this is a game.  We already have a lot of compromises with reality in this game that favor the offense.  We need some that favor the defense as well.

[Saxman]

Seems the faster one goes, the more accurate ack becomes. I've been in screaming 450+ dives getting plugged by ack at 90-degrees of deflection.

I think being able to get an altitude fix on dar contacts would be a DEFINATE help, and one that WOULD be realistic.

[Lye-El]

Originally posted by Pooface


 now ack, they shoulnt be hardened really, because the gunner in RL isnt protected...

 

In RL the ack would be in a dug in, snadbagged position. i.e. protected

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by Docc
A CAP only tells the enemy where your cv is and cv planes do not have much success against bombers when only armed with machine guns.

My experience against CV fighters indicates they are actually a little better against bombers than other categories of fighter.  The Corsairs are heavily armored and the .50 caliber guns are nothing to sneeze at.  Additionally, if you want cannon, the Seafire has two 20mm cannon and the C-hog has 4 of them.  Used correctly, any of the CV fighters are more than a match for buffs.  You just have to cap around 10-14K and you can intercept most level bombers.  Combine it with a lower level CAP for buffs that come in at 4K and you've got a nice fighter screen going.  All it takes is 2-4 guys.

[Cooley]

I dont know how hard it would be to fix this,
but if they just made it so your could only drop eggs from the Bombadier position, that will help stop it

excluding the Ju88 and whatever others Bombers did it historicly

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by Docc
Forget real life.........this is a game.  We already have a lot of compromises with reality in this game that favor the offense.  We need some that favor the defense as well.

Actually, I'd consider it a boost for defense if you hardened the "bunkers" (ammo, fuel, troops) a little and brought back 25% minimum fuel at the fields.  Make them so that ordnance or a lot more cannon fire is required.  Perhaps even make them impervious to fighter guns (mg and cannon) altogether.  Only let them be damaged by rockets and/or bombs.

This wouldn't be for emulation of real life so much as an attempt to increase game play by increasing the strategy component of the game.

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by Lye-El
In RL the ack would be in a dug in, snadbagged position. i.e. protected

One of the changes made from AH1 to AH2 was to slightly increase the hardness of ack positions.  Some speculate this was done to emulate a short wall of sandbags around the guns.

In AH1 you could rake 50's across an ack gun and it'd pop.  Now it takes a sustained burst on target or you can rake with cannon.

[Lye-El]

Originally posted by ChopSaw
One of the changes made from AH1 to AH2 was to slightly increase the hardness of ack positions.  Some speculate this was done to emulate a short wall of sandbags around the guns.

In AH1 you could rake 50's across an ack gun and it'd pop.  Now it takes a sustained burst on target or you can rake with cannon.

It takes 5 .50 hits on the ack to kill as tested by one of the guys a while back. One or two 20mm rounds in the vacinity does the job. If my memory isn't faulty I believe I have killed one with a pilots .45 also a while back.

[Docc]

Originally posted by Lye-El
It takes 5 .50 hits on the ack to kill as tested by one of the guys a while back. One or two 20mm rounds in the vacinity does the job. If my memory isn't faulty I believe I have killed one with a pilots .45 also a while back.

Yes, maybe less than 5 .50s.  And your guns fire those .50s at least 10 times faster than the ack can......from over 1K out with degree of accuracy of 15 feet (a little saw of the rudder ensures a kill) while one never knows where the ack shell is going due to dispersion built into the game and "realistic" ballistics and 'invisible' tracers.....cannon-armed planes have even more of an advantage...rendering the plane's survivablity much higher than IRL.

Basically, killing an ack in this GAME from 1K out with machine guns is COMPLETELY unrealistic.

And when a single burst of .50s can kill 100% of the manned ack (which is usually more accurate than the AI ack) at a VH or 33% at a large airfield, its no wonder that vulching is so easy and field defense is so poor.  IRL there was a lot more than 3 guns shooting at any plane that dived on a field and most were accurate at longer ranges  (88s).

I live in field guns in this game, get a lot of kills in them, but die a lot more.
The kills I get are from shooting at planes that are shooting at other acks or objects.  If a plane dives specifically on my ack and fires from 1K+, I die 19 out of 20 times which is just plain gameplay for the sake of offense and completely unfair.

The hordes provide more than enough offence if they get their priorities right.  Lets add a little defense to counter them.