Author Topic: Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective  (Read 3503 times)

Offline Simaril

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Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective
« on: April 10, 2006, 11:07:37 AM »
posted because we all know this topic needs another thread.....:lol

It occurred to me as i read through yet another polarized Mr. Bomberguy vs Mr. Fiighterguy pooo slinging contest, that most all the writers were thinking like experienced players evaluating gameplay from their experienced perspective. While understandable, doing so misses a crucial point.

HTC sees gameplay in a broader perspective -- one that considers player recruitment, player development, and THEN skilled player preferences -- as part of a continuum. For the busiiness to succeed, all three components HAVE TO be addressed in a way that keeps 'em having fun at each stage. And, it seems to me, HTC has to keep them all happy in the same arena at the same time or else the arena numbers would drop too low.

I'll use my expeience as an example. AH marks my first serious attempt at a flight sim, after my lack of ACM kept stalling tries at boxed sims.  Those two years have seen me go from hopelessly bad, to being able to hold my own on occasion even against some good players. But I bet I wouldnt have stayed in if it werent for bombers, jabos, and scoring. (No, not that kind!)

With my head routinely being handed to me, I tried fighting in hordes and with massive alt advantage....and I'd spend time buffing in milk runs. The score system let me feel like I was improving, and I could delude myself into thinking I was getting good when I saw my "rank" dropping. When I started to "get it" in AtA, I could use the KPD to mark my progress in staying alive. It was only later, when I realized that rank chasing (for many players) was more a function of online time + gamesmanship than skill, that I played more and more for the fight -- and I could have fun (tho not yet florish) at that.

I've noticed many others follow a similar trajectory, with or woithout the added attraction of GVs. I think many who get addicted and stick it out end up fighter guys, though some just like buffing/GVs for their own sake.

Either way, bombers, base captures, and score chasing are part of the evolution of an AH player. Buffing and base capture are essential, necessary part of AH continuing to succeed.

If it were all furballers all the time, the new guys would have a much lower retention rate because few newbs like being someone elses hamburger for months on end. Lower retnetion rate means fewer players, and with essentially fixed expenses that means the furballers would be carrying a prohibitive cost load. High costs mean even some good furballers with tighter finances dont play...and the circle gets tighter.

This is not a recipe for business or gameplay success.

So, I argue that AH does need this full range of play options to retain newbs until they're good and addicted. With time, many (tho not all, of course) will end up part of the furballer's fights. If the componenets with shorter learning curves were neutered, AH's survival as a business would likely be less secure.

So we all should stop yammering about the different styles. It makes far more sense to accept the differences, and work to maintain significant social pressure to channel the evolving players away from individual ACTS -- like dropping FHs at FT -- that are dysfunctional to gameplay.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2006, 11:11:46 AM by Simaril »
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Offline Toad

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Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2006, 11:24:30 AM »
And thus the request for the uncapturable FT option on all maps.

When folks finally get through the early stages and get to the point that they play "more and more for the fight", it would be nice if there was a place in the MA to go and do that.
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Offline Zazen13

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Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2006, 11:44:56 AM »
I agree with you, Simaril, for the most part. My first ever squadron was a huge bomber squadron, although I was part of the escort contingent I recall the same pattern for all new players. The fundamental point is that of education. While it is true newer players frustrated at attempting to surmount the HUGE learning curve of AH generally relegate themselves to the less challenging aspects of game-play, that should, in no way, be construed as an excuse to conduct themselves in an anti-social/anti-fun manner.

Single noobs in single buff formations is not what is causing the problems. What is causing the problems is a systematic and concerted effort by many newer players and many veterans (who know better) in buffs and jabos attempting and often succeeding to all but erase furballs and meaningfull protracted fights from the maps, including those at formal fightertowns...The only way to mitigate this behavior is to, in various ways, make it known through education that ruining fights for its own sake is frowned upon and not conducive to respect from peers.

Obviously, if new players daunted at the prospect of 6 months+ of getting smacked around in a fighter choose to do other things it is in the best interest of the game and HTC to not discourage buffing and GV'ing. I totally agree with that in the interest of long-term customer retention. Buffing and bombing (with a buff or fighter/bomber) is not the problem per se. The problem is a substantial sub-section of the buff/bombing/jaboing community, who really know better, have taken it upon themselves to misuse their tools to the point where it is drastically interfering and often eliminating the potential for those who strictly enjoy fightering from doing so. If that 'griefing' sub-section is allowed to continue to set this horrible example for the rather large recent influx of new players who are also buffing/bombing/jaboing we are setting a nasty precident that bodes ill for the future of AH and fightering in general...

So, this furball vs. toolshedding debate while perhaps appearing on the surface to be a noob vs. veteran issue really isn't. It is really an issue of trying to break this cycle of veteran, griefing toolshedders breeding an entire generation of newer players who think it is 'cool' to arbitrarily drop FHs, FTs and ruin fights...

Zazen
« Last Edit: April 10, 2006, 12:40:59 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Zazen13

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Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2006, 12:32:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
And thus the request for the uncapturable FT option on all maps.

When folks finally get through the early stages and get to the point that they play "more and more for the fight", it would be nice if there was a place in the MA to go and do that.


I agree in the unique situation of FT's some hard-coding that makes them un-capturable would be a good idea. I hate the principle of hard-coded solutions to community behavioral problems in general, however. A large part of the appeal of AH is the virtually un-restricted open-endedness of gameplay. Obviously, there will always be some that abuse that open-endedness to grief. But, that is a behavioral issue, not a coding issue. If we ask HiTech to hard-code solutions to community behavioral problems we are really admitting, as a community, we have failed to set and enforce, by whatever means necessary, rudimentary standards of acceptable conduct. That is not to say, we as a community, cannot at some future point ask him to step in to help. I just think we should exhaust all of our options as a community to solve behavioral problems first before we resort to heavy-handed, restrictive, hard-coded solutions...

Zazen
« Last Edit: April 10, 2006, 12:49:21 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Toad

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Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2006, 01:00:22 PM »
I don't believe there is any "community" enforcement available to ensure "acceptable standards of behavior".

By definition, Griefers strive to provide unacceptable standards of behavior. It is their raison d'etre; it's what gives them the feeling of success.

What options do you have? Squelch them? They relish the idea. Excoriate them on the BBS? More proof of their success, taken as a trophy.

The options in the game allow Griefing; it basically cannot be stopped by the players.

Oh, I suppose if a huge number of players banded together and focused on incipient griefing, you could reduce it. However, even in that event the Griefers win.... other players have been forced to pay attention to them and acknowledge them.

Nope. I don't think this problem can be addressed by the community. It could, however, be relatively easily addressed by HTC. TT's and FT's within rings of 50K mountains, devoid of ord and troops solves the problem. Wouldn't need more than a sector or two of terrain and the "reset" conditions could be adusted to take these bases into account as nulls.
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Offline DoKGonZo

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Re: Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2006, 01:09:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
posted because we all know this topic needs another thread.....:lol

It occurred to me as i read through yet another polarized Mr. Bomberguy vs Mr. Fiighterguy pooo slinging contest, that most all the writers were thinking like experienced players evaluating gameplay from their experienced perspective. While understandable, doing so misses a crucial point.

HTC sees gameplay in a broader perspective -- one that considers player recruitment, player development, and THEN skilled player preferences -- as part of a continuum. For the busiiness to succeed, all three components HAVE TO be addressed in a way that keeps 'em having fun at each stage. And, it seems to me, HTC has to keep them all happy in the same arena at the same time or else the arena numbers would drop too low.

...


Well, one problem is that in too many cases player development stops because the "easy way" works so well.

A newbie will likely get his 1st kill from a HO. And his 2nd. And his 5th. But that's such an easy skill to hone, compared to real ACM, that there's a whole breed who seem to know nothing else.

A newbie will likely get his 1st multi-kill mission from vultching. And his 2nd. And his 5th. But zooming the runway is likewise easier than, like, thinking and  there's now a whole breed who do nothing else than buzz fields.

Ahhh ... but there is a mode switch in there which we're forgetting. At first the newbie is thrilled to get that 1st kill and that 1st multi-kill landing. Once he repeats it a few times, that rush is gone - it's under his belt. But what's this? Hey, I get just as many perks and ranks for HO and vultch kills! Why bother with anything else?

And there are parallels for bomber and Jobo guys too. These aren't communal issues as much as basic human behavioral ones - the "path of least resistence" to what the game declares as an "objective." And that declaration can be as subtle as the mere existence of a K/D ratio in the score sheet.

The point of this example is that at some point the game mechanics have to step in and guide players towards an intended path. It needs to balance a reasonable bar setting for newbies so they don't get discouraged with not nerfing things down or rewarding newb-esque techniques to the point where the game descends to their level. That someone can more or less auger into a barracks and ruin a base capture attempt for 20+ people is one such example.

Shaky's proposal for linear base damage is the best idea I've seen to address the toolshedder issue. And something as simple as "no perks for ground kills" (you still get the kill, of course) could give players incentive to at least consider a trade beyond vultching - without robbing the newbs of anything. You don't get perks for manouever kills, afterall, and those are usually come under more duress than vultching.

Offline Zazen13

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Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2006, 01:14:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I don't believe there is any "community" enforcement available to ensure "acceptable standards of behavior".

By definition, Griefers strive to provide unacceptable standards of behavior. It is their raison d'etre; it's what gives them the feeling of success.

 


I hate that until recently I would have argued that you were incorrect on this point. But, I fear you may actually be correct now. I hate to think that the entire concept of 'community' as we knew it has devolved to this sad and sorry state...

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Offline Morpheus

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Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2006, 01:16:25 PM »
Is it too hard to just play the game and enjoy it your own way in a responsible manner?

All these threads dealing with "My way is better than yours" is getting down right retarded. IMHO you people are thinking way too hard about a game that is meant to keep you from thinking too hard about the stuff in life that really matters. This game is not something in life that really matters. For me, if and when I log in I don't care what you're doing. I jump in to the first thing that looks fun and start playing. Why should I care about what some middle aged over weight, smelly arm chair general is doing in a game 100's of miles a way?

I think some of you people have a little too much time on your hands.
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Offline Toad

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Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2006, 01:21:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
Is it too hard to just play the game and enjoy it your own way in a responsible manner?


Here's an example.

There's one map I truly enjoy, the one with the FT.

It provides that which I seek in this game.

I'd love to log in and play it.

However, it's rarely up and, lately, when it is, the FT portion has been neutralized by pointless base capture.

In short, I'd like to just play the game and enjoy it my own way but that is becoming increasingly difficult.
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Offline Morpheus

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Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2006, 01:28:57 PM »
Toad, I understand what you're getting at. The bases up there need to be reworked so only fighters and flacks can be used there. Flacks to help keep away the vulchers.

As far as me and this game is concerned, I'm probably gone for good anyways, so my 2 cents probably isn't worth that.

I am simply saying, that in no way one player completely deny another player the ability to do what he or she wants to do at any given moment. Its just not possible.
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Offline Shaky

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Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2006, 01:54:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus

All these threads dealing with "My way is better than yours" is getting down right retarded. IMHO you people are thinking way too hard about a game that is meant to keep you from thinking too hard about the stuff in life that really matters.  


You are absolutely right on this point Morph, which is why HTC should coad methods of deterring antisocial behavior and encouraging the type of play HE wants.

Reducing the ability to pork, yet still give a valid reason to run bombers that contribute to the overall objective of the game is one way to do this.

Another is to reduce the incentive to do noting but vulch.

These two items, IMHO, are the two biggest antisocial elements in the game. But who know, HTC may consider those who do nothing but furball on the deck in spits and other twisty planes also detrimential to the overal purpose of gameplay  :D
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Offline mars01

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Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2006, 01:59:50 PM »
Morph,

Your a dweeb pushbutton peelot now.  Talk to me when you got a prop on your nose and not a jet up your arse! :D

Offline PhilBGolf

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Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2006, 02:07:18 PM »
I find it sorta weird that I can take a 190A5 to a small airfield, drop the egg on the radar, take out the manned ack with the rockets, kill the rest of the ack with cannon, kill the troops, destroy the two ammo bunkers, and still have ammo left to vulch with (for a few minutes anyway, until I'm bingo fuel).  I don't think that's quite realistic (but it IS fun).  Maybe HTC could make things at a base harder to kill...?
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Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2006, 02:10:08 PM »
soon, but not soon enough they will give us rotors on our heads. :D
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Offline Morpheus

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Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2006, 02:11:29 PM »
Quote
You are absolutely right on this point Morph, which is why HTC should coad methods of deterring antisocial behavior and encouraging the type of play HE wants.


LOL! yeah ok.
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