Furballs vs Shedders: Developmental Perspective

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Zazen13
As I said earlier, FT is a drop in the bucket as far as this debate is concerned. FT exists for only a few days once every 8 weeks or so. The greater problem is the relative ease that fields can be rendered un-playable and/or useless. Fields can be rendered useless by one person with great ease. The reason is, in a nutshell, the individual strategic elements that comprise a field are too soft, too easily killed and vulnerable, without a reasonable chance for pre-emptive intervention, to a single individual determined to grief....Hardening the bases is an easy, obvious, and direct solution to the problem. Advocating that simply because you perceive a portion of the community is content with bases being easily crippled is not a real reason why they should not be hardened...The same people could very well end up being content with them in their hardened state as well, perhaps we'll find out if that is indeed the case...

Zazen

Actually the problem isn't hardness of ground targets, it's the fact the damage model is based on 'weight' of round and takes no account of what the structure being destroyed is made of.
Thats why 303's, 50's, etc can all damage the main guns on a cruiser, where in reality they'd do nothing.
What is needed is an overhaul of the damage model, it is the only part of the game that has lagged way behind the rest of it.

Take-
Ord bunkers - I would say should only be able to be damaged by rocks or eggs, GV's next to them take secondary damage.
Troops - Difficult one, but maybe just rocks and eggs again.
Fuel - Everything should be able to damage them, also GV's hiding by them when they are blown up should take secondary damage.
Acks - As they are, but maybe increase the lethality slightly and add more to fields.

As for hardness - Should remain at current levels.

What is needed is the correct weapon for the applicable target.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by shiningpathb4me
"What is causing the problems is a systematic and concerted effort by many newer players and many veterans (who know better) in buffs and jabos attempting and often succeeding to all but erase furballs and meaningfull protracted fights from the maps, including those at formal fightertowns..."


I read zazens reply up to that point.  Paranoid, ignorant, arrogant, geez - There really isnt anything he could possibly ever say that could erase that evaluation.  The maps we play on have quite a few bases, with a variety of vehicles/planes and spawn points. Somebody who wants to fly around in a bomber while online  has just as mucha right to do it as someone who prefers fighters.  How anyone could be so stupid as to think that AH2 was designed only for them escapes me.

The darwinian element of the original thread is so arrogant and ridiculous I can't believe I made it as far as Zazens reply. Your 19th century logic is boring in the extreme.

There is a dueling arena for anyone who wants protracted 1v1 fights. DOn't bore the rest of us with your silly accusations and moronic logic
The "fighter town" you are so proud of doesn't provide protracted 1v1 and it has nothing to do with idiots trying to bomb the hangars. The word "Furball" and the expression "protracted duel" simply don't belong in the same sentence. A furball has nothing to do with ACM's, dueling, or anything else.

A furball is for lazy dweebs who for whatever reason aren't interested in participating in the game with everyone else. Thats cool - do whatever you want - but somehow bringing skill level, experience, evolution, etc into your stupid argument is just, well, nonsense. Of course I'm wasting my breath here, because many of you don't function at a high enough level to understand what I'm talking about.

As HT once said ...

clueless dolt

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Shaky
I've made several suggestions, as DoK has...neither of us are "furball" types....we used to call them "SpitDweebs"

Changing the FH drops to analog (to use DoKs term) and ensuring that you will always be able to up some type of fighter (yes, even a P40) will go a long way to guaranteeing close, intense fights that involve ALL players...and thats the best type of game play.

Shaky ... sorry I must of missed that one ... please direct me towards it.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Kev367th
As I said IF the changes proposed can be implemented in FT WITHOUT altering anything else then I don't see why it shouldn't happen.

Conversly ...

IF the changes proposed CAN'T be implemented in FT WITHOUT altering anything else then they SHOULDN'T happen.

I would want any changes to change the dynamics of all of the MA ... that just wouldn't be right.

If any changes that can be made, on a per field basis, without upsetting the larger MA, that could aid in quelling the situation, then it should be TRIED.

[Shaky]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Shaky ... sorry I must of missed that one ... please direct me towards it.

Its over on the wish list now...forget which of the threads here I posted it on....but here's a copy:

Change in Fields Damage Coad.

OK, so I doubt anyone from HTC wants to get involved in the flame-fests over ont he Gen Disc board, I'll repost this here....this is based on the idea that the core design of the MA is a "base taking" game.....

Its possible to use portions of that design to make ofher player experiences less than enjoyable. A prime example of that is the porkers that continually roam the landscape, porking troop, ord, and hangers just to see things go "boom".

These porkers are not a reason to eliminate the core designs of the game, however they may be a reason to modify them. It is possible to keep aircraft on a field supressed without dropping the FH's , so why should the porkers have the ability to drop them completely?

Bombing the FHs should reduce the effetiveness of fighters coming up, but not eleimiate them. How to reduce effectiveness? Dunno...perhaps by limiting the types that can come up based on the damage done.

Suggestion:
5000 lbs damage: ENY<7 disabled
10000 lbs damage: ENY<15 disabled
20000 lbs damage: ENY<35 Disabled

Ordie and troops should operate the same way. Imagine if troops were damaged to the extent that you could only load 2 troops . Well..jeeps would get a lotta use then, wouldn't they?

Other things to keep in mind wityh this basic proposal....damage to each hanger should be looked at on an individual basis, so that the ENY limit on the field should be based on the LEAST damaged hanger of a type and not on the total amount of hanger damage done to a field.

This means that crippling a field so that only high ENY fighters may lift will take coordination and teamwork, especially the larget fields. The bombage/ENY damage may have to be adjusted based on that...for example, perhaps 2000 lbs of ord could drop 1 hanger 1 step, meaning it would take 4 fighters worth of ordie to drop all the hangers of a small field 1 step, 5 fighters for a med, and 7 fighters for a large.

Also notice that crippling a large field would now be a MAJOR undertaking, requiring the coopertaion of 20-30 fighter type aircraft to knock the hagers down to high ENY planes...but still, even after that, the defenders would be able to do aomething besides fly IL2's. Of course, this means trying to get a P40 up from under the vulch, but some guys would try

[Kev367th]

Don't see the analogue FH's as an answer.

Can't really see the point, whats the difference if your being vulched in an IL2 or P40?

Plus getting enough guys to lift at once you could possibly make fields completely uncapturable.

Remember how hard VHs were when the bug crept in that allowed you to roll a plane from a VBase (even with VH's down).
That was just a VBase.

Plus with the added complication of ENY restrictions it makes it even more unfeasable.
You could theoretically get to a point where the ENY was that high, hitting FH's was totally pointless.

My solution is to make the structures only damagable by the appopriate weapon, i.e. no more 110's strafing down hangers, only ord should damage it.
No more machine gun or cannon rounds hurting cruisers etc.

[Toad]

Just a thought..... the horde has it's origins in making capture harder and harder.

Before "capture" was "hardened" you had to defend against small bands making flanking attacks.

Now capture has become a horde activity.

Did that really improve the gameplay?

I don't think so. Used to be fun to sneak low level with just a few guys and capture a rear area base. Doesn't happen much at all now.........

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Don't see the analogue FH's as an answer.

Can't really see the point, whats the difference if your being vulched in an IL2 or P40?

Plus getting enough guys to lift at once you could possibly make fields completely uncapturable.

Remember how hard VHs were when the bug crept in that allowed you to roll a plane from a VBase (even with VH's down).
That was just a VBase.

Plus with the added complication of ENY restrictions it makes it even more unfeasable.
You could theoretically get to a point where the ENY was that high, hitting FH's was totally pointless.

My solution is to make the structures only damagable by the appopriate weapon, i.e. no more 110's strafing down hangers, only ord should damage it.
No more machine gun or cannon rounds hurting cruisers etc.

Thats true ... a vulch is a vulch no matter what plane you lift, but this idea does thwarth the griefers who come only to take out fighter hangers to stop the fight all together.

At least with this idea, one could lift such planes as early model P-47s, early model P-38s, etc. and not just A-20s or IL-2s.

I like it Shaky ...

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Toad
Just a thought..... the horde has it's origins in making capture harder and harder.

Before "capture" was "hardened" you had to defend against small bands making flanking attacks.

Now capture has become a horde activity.

Did that really improve the gameplay?

I don't think so. Used to be fun to sneak low level with just a few guys and capture a rear area base. Doesn't happen much at all now.........

Because it's a lot harder now.
Making the towns that much bigger all but put an end to it.
Talking towns, another misake (IMO) was changing town ack so it no longer fires at GV's.
Now a single M3 can sneak in, kill the two acks and re-capture a freshly down town.
Before this the acks would kill the M3.

Most of the 'small team' sneaks now only occur when there are not many people on, so theres less people watching the map for flashing towns/bases.

Slapshot - Won't happen, you could make bases impossible to capture. You think theres hoards now, the analog FHs would only encourage even larger hoards.

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Toad
...

I don't think so. Used to be fun to sneak low level with just a few guys and capture a rear area base. Doesn't happen much at all now.........

Wow ... has this discussion ever come full circle ... wasn't it about 3 days ago people were griping about how the LCA did just that?

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Kev367th
...

Slapshot - Won't happen, you could make bases impossible to capture. You think theres hoards now, the analog FHs would only encourage even larger hoards.

Hang on ... are you saying that a base can't be taken if the FH are intact now?

[SlapShot]

Slapshot - Won't happen, you could make bases impossible to capture. You think theres hoards now, the analog FHs would only encourage even larger hoards.

Could they get any worse or any larger than they are now ... I don't think so.

Dok ... I believe he means that with the FHs up, there is always a chance that someone COULD launch and spoil the capture ... this is what he means by impossible ... streching it a little bit, by I understand his point.

[Arcades057]

You know, I just watched a video online last night that sort of summed up this whole argument...

You see, in the video there's a family filming their dog sitting there, looking all cute.  Right next to the dog is this monkey who's looking at the camera, almost as though he's waiting for a signal from the filmer.  As soon as the film starts the monkey grabs the dog's tail and gives it a yank.  The dog goes after the monkey, but it's too quick; it runs away and jumps into a tree, swinging around to get into position for another BnZ pass.  As soon as the fog turns around, the monkey's back, grabbing the dog's leg... and then he's OFF again, into the tree!  

To me, it sums this whole argument up.  Whichever side you're on you feel like that poor dog being buggered by the monkey.  That little **** comes BnZing up, grabs your tail, and then he's gone, grabbing alt...  Or bombing your FH...

There's too much ing going on about this.  Too many people getting  over cartoon airplanes and different playing styles.  I don't ever recall seing this sort of vitriol going on at the AW forums when someone hit the Spit factory or took the capturable bases in the center of the map.  If the LCA, admitted "noobs" almost every one, think they've changed something by starting to up massive buff formations to blast fields back to the stone age, hell, let them think it.  Whining about their accomplishments is actually gayer than their accomplishments.

So, in the end, it boils down to this:  This is sort of like politics.  You're either in a red state or a blue one.  But guess what?  Neither side is better than the other because they're both out to screw you in one way or another.  The toolshedders are out to drop hangars, while the furballers are going to whine and cry and holler on range if you steal a kill or pop in front of their guns or bomb something on the field that isn't supposed to be bombed.

So stop feeling like that poor dog and start feeling like the people with the camera.  You know they got one helluva laugh out of that monkey buggering their dog!  

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Slapshot - Won't happen, you could make bases impossible to capture. You think theres hoards now, the analog FHs would only encourage even larger hoards.

Could they get any worse or any larger than they are now ... I don't think so.

Dok ... I believe he means that with the FHs up, there is always a chance that someone COULD launch and spoil the capture ... this is what he means by impossible ... streching it a little bit, by I understand his point.

OK ... what he really means is it would remove the sure-thing capture situation where all hangars are down and nothing can possibly lift to defend.

[Shaky]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
OK ... what he really means is it would remove the sure-thing capture situation where all hangars are down and nothing can possibly lift to defend.

This is why I read to the end of the thread before I reply anymore...DoK hit just what my point was going to be.

The small player sneak is going to be just what it always has been since numbers here got big....hit the town, hit the ack, sneak in a goon. 1 guy upping screws that up now.  No one upping and you get the sneak in...no difference between my suggestion and the way it is now.

Changing field damage to a progressive damage model does a couple things:

1: Enables fighters to up no matter what the damage...OK, so its a ENY 40+ fighter, its still a fighter!

2: Encourages the need for more TEAMWORK when capturing bases. You can't relax after the VH and FH are down, you have to keep that vulch on, watch that goon, keep the pressure on till the field rolls over.

3: Puts a BAD hurt on "griefers", who only want to drop FHs to piss people off. People will still be pissed if they can't up their SpitXVI's and LA7's but IMHO, thats a GOOD thing!

4: Encourages the use of a more varied planeset. Can't up the LA7? Grab a 51B! Try something different, and get BACK in that furball! Also, depending on how its coaded with the VH's and such, you might always be able to get a jeep out of the hanger to help with field defense. Think this will stop a capture? Heck, jeeps pop real easy with a strafing run, so if you don't see it and it kills your troopies, whose fault is that?

As for the argument that it makes captures "too hard", well, 1 guy 30k up in a flight of lancs should NOT be the sole "make or break" part of a base capture, the way it is now. With a progressive damage system, its still VERY important to knock the hangers back in the face of a determined defense in order to degrade the fighters and vehicles to the point where the CAP can handle them.

Look at what happens now when a base is hotly contested...the fight gets pushed back over the base and the vulch is on. If the vulch gets to be overwhelmed by numbers of guys trying to up, then a buff comes in and drops the hanger. That ONE buff has just negated the efforts of 20 guys trying to up and defend. Thats not right. You want to take a base with 20 guys defending...better bring 20 guys with you.