Author Topic: Six F15's vs one Raptor  (Read 2222 times)

Offline Krusher

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« on: April 17, 2006, 11:26:22 AM »
The aircraft is simply the most advanced ever built. There is nothing on earth to touch it. In simulated dogfights it has wiped the floor with the opposition. In one such encounter, six F-15 Eagle air-superiority fighters — which the Raptor is replacing and which has a perfect combat record of 101 victories with zero defeats — were sent up to “kill” a single Raptor. All six were shot down.

A bit of perspective is needed here. The Eagle is the most lethal air-superiority fighter in the US arsenal and its pilots are the best in the world.
One of those “aura” pilots I was talking about earlier is Lieutenant-Colonel Paul Huffman, the commander of the 64th Aggressor Squadron.

The Aggressors are the dogfighting experts of the US Air Force. In aerial combat training they act as the “enemy”. It’s their job to give the opposing fighter jocks a hard time. It’s also their job to “kill” them. A sort of baptism of fire — a wake-up call.

Huffman and his hot-shots were sent up against the Raptor. I’ll let him finish the story.

“We still joke about our missions against the Raptor, because they can be fairly boring.

“We fly to the [designated combat] range. Die. Go to the tanker [to refuel]. Go back out to the range. Die. Go back to the tanker. Go back out. Die. After the third time we go home.”

Same thing the next day, and the next.

As Huffman told Code One magazine, the 64th flew almost 300 sorties against the Raptors “and we never once got to merge [make visual contact] against a single Raptor”.

Another hard-assed air combat supremo, Lieutenant-Colonel Robert Garland, a former F-15 Eagle pilot and now a Raptor jockey, told Code One magazine: “Six adversaries provide a good workout for two F-15 Eagle pilots. But for two Raptors, defeating six adversaries is about as difficult as eating breakfast. We [Raptor pilots] don’t even break a sweat.”

So what is it that makes the R800-million Raptor so special? In a word, technology. Stealth technology in the main, supported by mighty engines with supercruise ability, thrust vectoring agility and integrated avionics.

What all this means is that you can’t see the damned thing. It can go faster than sound without afterburner flames coming out of its backside and it has nozzles at the rear that make it turn on a tickey.

It also flies higher, faster and further than any other fighter in the world and all its weapons are tucked away in bays in its stealth-faceted fuselage.

When needed, a variety of missiles pop out and scream off towards the hapless enemy, who has no clue that he has just seconds left to live.

The problem with the Raptor, for its enemies, is that it can’t be seen on radar. Opposing fighters rely on their radar to pick up bogeys, which they chase until they get a visual on the aircraft. Also, because the engines don’t have to use afterburners to go supersonic there is no telltale flame or smoke. And nothing for heat-seeking missiles to latch onto.

So how do you fight something you can’t see, fire at or out-turn? The short answer is: you don’t. You just die.

Offline Scatcat

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2006, 12:02:42 PM »
Poor eagle drivers, been a different story with vipers ;)

Offline expat

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2006, 12:29:38 PM »
because the engines don’t have to use afterburners to go supersonic there is no telltale flame or smoke. And nothing for heat-seeking missiles to latch onto.


Thats a bit over simplified.....you do not need an afterburner flame to use an AIM 9.........
I doubt very much that the raptor engines dont have an ir signature that  a heat seaking missile can track
goggles on ,chocks away, last one backs a homo  hooraaaaaaaaay!

Offline ChickenHawk

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Re: Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2006, 01:06:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher
and its pilots are the best in the world.


So sayith we all.
Do not attribute to malice what can be easily explained by incompetence, fear, ignorance or stupidity, because there are millions more garden variety idiots walking around in the world than there are blackhearted Machiavellis.

Offline indy007

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2006, 01:19:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by expat
because the engines don’t have to use afterburners to go supersonic there is no telltale flame or smoke. And nothing for heat-seeking missiles to latch onto.


Thats a bit over simplified.....you do not need an afterburner flame to use an AIM 9.........
I doubt very much that the raptor engines dont have an ir signature that  a heat seaking missile can track


Yeah, but that's the point. No radar signature means you have to visually ID it. It has datalinks and phased array radar available, it's knows where you're at. During the day, getting visual on it is going to be next to impossible even for an all-aspect IR missle attack. During the night... well... good luck. Hooray for the culmination of Cold War technology?

Offline Bodhi

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2006, 01:30:12 PM »
A good friend of mine, an ex Eagle driver and Vietnam F-4 pilot told me that the Raptor is quite simply the best aircraft ever built.  While I argue that the Hellcat fits that bill, he is firmly convinced that the Raptor has no opponent that can touch it.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline StSanta

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2006, 01:36:06 PM »
Ok, so the Raptors fire medium range BVR missiles en masse and downs 6 F-15's. That*is* impressive, no matter how you turn it about.

The Raptor has to acquire its targets. I assume they use radar for this - long enough to unload (and if AMRAAMS at long range, initially guide) the missiles. The radar will give off their general vicinity and alert the F15's to their presence but won't provide enough info for them to use their own medium range missiles. It's smart fighting.

What I'd love to see is a 6 v 1 dogfight though. People have said for a long times that dogfights are of an era past, even going so far as to removing guns on some types of aircraft. And putting them back on when it turned out they were needed after all.

Are there any official results from F-15 vs F-22 dogfights? F-22's superiority in BVR is more a less a "DUH!" thing. In visual range fighting, its edge on the opposition is a good deal smaller - even with thrust vectoring. In this environment, the enemy can actually shoot back and use numerical superiority for something.

And given that Europeans and Russians have put some effort in more advanced short range IR missiles, targetting systems and so on, I seriously think that a Raptor would be in trouble fighting 6 enemy planes with this technology at the same time (dogfighting, not long distance plonking).

Offline Yeager

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2006, 01:44:00 PM »
F-22 beware the Mig15, Yeah baby!

I love the F22 have for years but I gots ta axe, how will the F22 wage war against the islamofacists suiciders?
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Offline StSanta

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2006, 01:55:04 PM »
Heheh yeah Yeager, after shooting down the first 50 MiG-15's, expending all missiles and gun ammo, it'll have t try to maneuver so that the MiGs end up colliding with each other.

The MiGs need only worry about running out of fuel. And they don't have to RTB.

I guess that means the F-22 will have to tuck its tail behind its legs and RTB sooner or later :D

Offline indy007

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2006, 01:58:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
F-22 beware the Mig15, Yeah baby!

I love the F22 have for years but I gots ta axe, how will the F22 wage war against the islamofacists suiciders?


Increasing immigration into European countries leading to a slow, but steady replacement of government until they have the majority. They assume the leadership of European nations and their militaries. Political purges and "restaffing" ensues, taking possession of the nation's military hardware. A cartoon is drawn in MS paint and posted on a blog hosted in America. War breaks out.


....

:noid

Offline indy007

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2006, 02:10:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta
Are there any official results from F-15 vs F-22 dogfights? F-22's superiority in BVR is more a less a "DUH!" thing. In visual range fighting, its edge on the opposition is a good deal smaller - even with thrust vectoring. In this environment, the enemy can actually shoot back and use numerical superiority for something.


Sounds like it'd do okay to me.

Quote

The F-22 was designed so that the Raptor is capable of reaching an extreme angle of attack while still under the pilot's full control. The objective was "carefree abandon" handling, allowing the pilot to exploit a very large alpha/airspeed envelope without losing control of the aircraft. The Raptors is also immune to deep stalls and recover from high alphas, post-stall condition with both engine out and even in post-stall.



Quote

But on the bright side, the F-22 does out perform against the Euro Fighter, the French Rafael and the Russian made SU-37 in thrust/weight ratio, wing loading at combat weight, internal fuel and flight limits.

Offline Chairboy

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2006, 02:13:21 PM »
Sure, but does it have heart?
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Offline Xjazz

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2006, 02:13:49 PM »

Offline J_A_B

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2006, 04:14:25 PM »
Heh, take a look at the Hornet's airspeed.  


J_A_B

Offline LePaul

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2006, 05:10:51 PM »
And the flamefest of comments from the previous screen grab