why obey laws....

[lazs2]

let me tell you about "the price of veggies and such"

it is silly to use that scare tactic... it has been used over and over... some of you aren't old enough or can't rememeber the tactic.

It was used in the brasero and UFW wars.... tomatoes would be $5 apiece!!!!!!

bull.... instead of 40 mexican sorters we now have 2 on the same rig and we use lasers to tell ripe from unripe... other method are used too..

upshot is... no one does the backbreaking and low paying work anymore.  everyone gained by less available work force.

kids might have to get off the computer and work at landscaping jobs big deal.

Nope... the real solution is as I say but the government has no stake in a real solution and they are making you musheads follow right allong with what they want.... to grow themselves and get more money.

The government loves problems that you all beg them to solve at any cost.

lazs

[lukster]

So how do we "make" our government listen to us lazs? Letters seem to have no effect. I believe our politicians already know what most of us want, it's just not what they want.

[lukster]

I think the republicans are pretty smart to make an issue of our immigration problems as we begin gearing up for our next presidential election. This could become the deciding issue easily overshadowing the war in Iraq.

[jigsaw]

Ya'll can whine and moan about it all you want, but nothing is going to change.

Politicians won’t crack down on the employers because that’s who they go to for campaign donations. As long as employers hire illegals, they’ll keep coming. The most you may see is some vanity law to make the anti-illegals think they’ve achieved something, which wont be enforced. It’s already illegal for them to come here they way they do, and it’s not stopping them. A new law would be like adding more gun control to keep the criminals from owning guns.

The other big threat to the economy isn’t even illegal. It’s outsourcing the mid level jobs overseas.  This has been killing the middle class for a long time. Once again you have business owners (or stock holders) and politicians to thank for it. I know people who were making six figure, or near, incomes that are now living off food stamps or flipping burgers because there is no Tech Sector job market.  The last Tech Sector job I had, which I was laid off from, has had the entire department outsourced. Eight thousand people were laid off at the same time as I.  Within about two months of having the CEO speak at a massive meeting telling people “Don’t worry about your job.”

You can also thank outsourcing at least partially for the gas prices at the pumps. Now that overseas economies are thriving, they’re spending more. Buying more luxury items like cars and petroleum based products. Guess who this hits again… the middle class.

If you want to effect some sort of change, you’re going to have to start at the top. Put people in office that care more about your welfare than their own pockets.
Good luck having that happen.

[RedTop]

Originally posted by Goomba
BlckMgk,

I have great respect for the immigrant experience;  I'm second generation All-American myself.

I have a great respect for all those who so love my country that they truly want to be a part of it.  I'm honored and proud.

I have no respect, no sympathy and no empathy for those who would spit on the country I love, by stealing from it and screaming about how they deserve to.

I know the process is flawed...which is why I've always supported a healthy debate and reformation of the system.

However...flawed though it may be...a person cannot self-justify a willful dismissal of the law of the land, simply because they find the process not to their liking.

Some will get denied for good reason.  Tough.

Some will get denied because there are limits as to how many people we can let in every year;  the cow does NOT have endless milk.  Again...I'm sorry, but them's the breaks.

Prosecution or persecution in a person's home country for trying to leave?  How on God's green earth can that be our problem?  How can that be our fault?  Every time we stick our noses into another country's business, we get slapped around and criticized all over the world.  The American Empire come to interfere again.

I say, if life stinks so bad at home...fix it.  Not easy, not painless, not without sacrifice...I don't make any suggestion that it's a quick and simple matter.  But, if life stinks at home, it will never, NEVER improve until the nationals of that country decide to improve themselves....and not wait for someone else to do it for them.  That's simply how the world works.

There are two choices at home....fix it is one.  The other is to declare oneself unwilling and incapable of participating in one's own cultural development, and then run away.  And when you've run somewhere else, cry about how your rights are being violated, and what you deserve to be given...without earning a damned thing.  Of course, then we see those self-same people decide that, while their own culture isn't worth fighting for at home, they cannot live without that same culture when they come here.  No assimilation, for generations!!  Just move into the isolated enclave neighborhood with others from their home country, then refuse to become part of this one.

I do not...and would never...lump all immigrants together.  To do so would make me the worst form of hypocrite.  I'm only here because my family DID immigrate to the US, and they did assimilate.  Quite proudly, I'm glad to say.

No, I have no issue with any decent human being who so loves what my country stands for that they would leave behind all that they know and are familiar with, to be a part of what we are.

If we dimiss the lunatic fringe, I think the whole issue pivots on one, fundamental operative word.

Illegal.



(PS...any part of this which sounded like it was personal to BlckMgk was not intended that way.  Speaking in the generic, as it were.)

^^^^what he said...That was a great post.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by BlckMgk
Thing is, these people WANT TO WORK. They come to america not to steal but to make a living and help themselves and their families. Saddest thing about this situation is that there ARE US citizens who ARE citizens in the USA and don't do **** but collect welfare and sit on their tulips all day. Those are the people we should be getting rid of.

You guys disgust me.

Fine if they want to work let them come here LEGALLY and work.
Otherwise get the hell out.
People that want to give these illegals a free pass when others had to pay their dues to become legal, dusgust me.

I have no problem with people that come into my house that I let in.
But I get just a little upset when they sneak in uninvited no matter how good their intentions are.

As for the US citizens who are here legally and refuse to work. As far as Im concerned. Make THEM do all these so called jobs americans dont want as a requirement to receive Welfare. And if they refuse.
Let em starve.
Hungar is a great motivator

[Atoon]

I didn't intend it to be taken as any sort of a scare tactic,  In fact, I'm the type of guy who prefers dogs that don't bark, but just rip yer arse to shreds if you cross their line ( I have 2 like that). Scaretactics just aren't my style.

I meant it as a serious possible reprocussion to enforcing imigration laws. Now that I put more thought into it, I would happily pay .30 more for a tomatoe if average hourly wage were increased 1. per hour.

What I'm trying to say is, I agree with you

Now if we could only get it to happen.

[lazs2]

thank you... but... jigs is correct.

The government will be faced with three choices.

it can build a big fence and hire thousands of enforcement (more goverment police) officers and an army of buerocrats to run them and their staff and whine for a bigger budget evey year as an excuse to why they are inefective (imagine an ineffective government program?)

or... they can simply say.... there is no problem... every criminal illegal is now legal.... end of problem   there are no illegals except those that continue to come over.  The mind boggles at how much the amnesty will cost with all these new minimum wage non english speaking new "Americans" all wanting their piece of the pie... social security is for everyone remember... even if they never paid in a dime.

last.... my idea.   it needs to be two fold...  some sort of tamper proof ID and some sort of federal background check exactly like for firearms.... takes only a few hours or... maybe a day...."ok..we will run your ID and if you check out report for work in 24 hours"  

any employer caught under my plan will have a mandatory 1 year sentance...

not much chance of this happening.... not enough in it for the socialists.   and as jigs says... the employers vote.   That is the perception anyway.... but... do the real employers want to hire illegals?  are they doing it on purpose?  are they just going along with the flow and, are the real big employers really victims?   they can't discriminate under current law so they gotta hire spanish speakers.

I say that we should write our represenitives.   I say that the only way to stop it is to stop the employer.   You don't stop drugs in a school by pretending you don't see the drug dealer and then arresting every student that he talks to.

lazs

[lazs2]

let me say.... If I were a mexican with no real chance to get ahead.... I would be an illegal too.  

And why not?  family and self comes first.   I would say...."If I am breaking the law..... then how come as soon as I cross the border I can go anywhere in the U.S. and get a job?"

and..."if I get cought... no one cares... nothing will happen to me"  

but.... if more and more mexicans came home and said.... "I couldn't get a job... no one would hire me.  They are putting gringos in jail who hire us"

How would that be?

you want to write to your representives.... copy the above and send that.

lazs

[Goomba]

I have to agree that punishing the hiring managers and companies is probably the single most effective deterrent we have...provided that significant jail time and back-breaking fines are mandatory.  Companies should be very, very leery of hiring anyone who's credentials are questionable.

If we eliminate the ability to run away from problems at home, people have to stay home and make it better.



(PS...TY RedTop. )

[Jackal1]

I have seen the excuse here and in other threads that the illegals are doing jobs at a wage that the citizens would not. I have also seen it said they are doing jobs that the citizen would not do period.
It is true that most U.S. citizens would not do some of the jobs at the wages being paid the illegals. Most working folks ask for a fair wage for an honest days work, nothing more.
So.....the employer feels he is beating the system and increasing his profits by hiring the illegals at a low wage. In fact what he is doing is slowing chipping away at the industry in which he is involved. He is also promoting inflation and screwing up the economy in general.
The illegal will come here, draw the low wages, live on very little while here, then either send the wages home or return home with them himself for the most part. Those low wages drawn here equal to a gold mine in their home country. It takes the dollars that he earned out of the economy`s formula and takes jobs away from the citizen when a fair wage will not be paid to them for the same jobs.
By not enforcing the laws that are in place to prevent the hiring of illegals, we are in fact, cutting off our own nose to spite our face.
Enforce the laws dealing with hiring of the illegals, make jobs available to the citizen at a fair wage. A win-win situation for our country. Excess jobs,if any,  could be filled by those from other countries filing for and receiving a work permit legaly obtained and easily checked out.
Then border security could be devoted, in the most part, to those abroad who wish to aatack our country and to those who wish to smuggle, etc.

[lukster]

You guys did hear the recent cries from the more prominent and vocal democrats about how "cruel and mean" the recent house bill was right? How punishing those "helping" illegal aliens was immoral. Of course Hillary got in one the act stating that the "good samaritan" and even Jesus would have been jailed. The bill was aimed at doing exactly what lazs is supporting, punishing employers of illegals. I know I'm repeating myself but that bill passed in house. It's the senate and possibly the president we need to work on and/or replace.

[lazs2]

Of course the democrats know that punishing the employer would work.  They don't even claim that it won't work.



That is exactly why they are against it.   A simple plan that punishes the people responsible and does not grow the government and, even more important, grow the democrat socialist voter base....is the absolute opposite of what the democrats want.

A reall solution is the worst thing that could happen to the democrats.

lazs

[lukster]

A beginning?
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/14400740.htm