Author Topic: Does he have the Cajones... Will he do it?  (Read 3513 times)

Offline Urchin

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Does he have the Cajones... Will he do it?
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2006, 11:10:56 AM »
Hang... the oil companies aren't "American" in the sense that you or I are.  

They exist to make money.  If an oil CEO could buy oil from Satan at $5 a barrel, and the only cost would be that their mother burnt in hell for eternity, they'd be all over that deal like stink on ****.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2006, 11:15:36 AM »
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Originally posted by Urchin
If an oil CEO could buy oil from Satan at $5 a barrel, and the only cost would be that their mother burnt in hell for eternity


If the only cost was that their mother burnt in hell for eternity, it wouldn't cost $5/bbl

And you lecture us on economics and "elasticity of demand".
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Offline Urchin

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« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2006, 11:17:32 AM »
The cost to you sure wouldn't be.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2006, 11:34:57 AM »
no urchin and beet... gas would not go up to $15 a gallon and have the same demand.... beet is very much in favor of reducing demand by price but...

He wants to do it artificaly.... by taxation or fee.... I say let it go based on cost and what the market will bear..  I have not heard of this "elasticity' but think I understand the concept.... It would apply to say food or water..

For fuel... the worst thing to do is artifically raise the price by say taxation.

I say that as fuel price goes up.... things will even out.... new sources will be found and some will use less (less demand)...

lazs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2006, 11:42:20 AM »
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Originally posted by Urchin
the price of gas could go up to $15 a gallon and people would still buy it.  Why?  Because they have to.
True, but they would not buy as much. Demand for 12mpg SUVs would totally evaporate. Indeed, during the Katrina aftermath, Storch found his Ford Excursion discounted by $15000 and the dealer had about 60 of them unsold on his lot. What you'd see is what we have here in Europe. People would buy cars which were tailored to their needs rather than to their bragging rights. You would not have people buying house sized trucks and bragging about how much gas they consumed, which is what I've seen in the truck thread. In some European countries such as Italy and Austria, 60% of passenger cars are diesel powered and would get about 50 miles per gallon, some much more than that.

HangTime!
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Not a drop of US refined oil should be exported till we are NOT dependant on OPEC oil.
I agree with you that America needs to wean itself off OPEC oil. However, driving 12mpg "societally correct" vehicles is not the way to do it.
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Short Term.. Toss in the towel on the middle east's oil. If we have to 'go abroad' to secure oil, lets make it Canada and Mexico.
I don't think Canada and Mexico combined could even come close to producing enough oil to meet American demand, which is currently 20 million barrels a day - about 25% of the world supply.
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Alternative Energy... sure. Time to stop dragging feet. More efficient use of fuels.. we can build a better SUV and truck engines. We're not incompetent or helpless.. time to do some 'american ingenuity' stuff again.
Yes, I agree! Alternative energy sources = good. And I do believe America does have the ability to make it happen, now that America is about to follow Britain's lead in getting involved with processing nuclear "waste".
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our gas prices were lower than most other places in the world because we were the worlds largest crude oil customer
Actually it's the other way round - you were the largest crude oil customer because your gas prices were lower than most other places in the world. Your whole economy has been based on cheap oil - for at least 40-50 years. You mention China - don't forget that many of the goods produced in China are destined for US markets. China is America's third biggest trading partner.
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Lastly.. the oil companies themselves. Time to whack 'em with an export tax. If oil products leave this country they do so with a huge tarrif attached. High enough that they will make more money putting the product in front of american consumers than they would if it goes to china.
LOL!!! HangTime is a socialist! New and heavy taxes!!! Hell has finally frozen over! Oh wait, on second thoughts we have to wait for Lazs to agree with this. That surely will signal the dawn of a new ice age in Hell!

:rofl

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2006, 12:18:02 PM »
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1. We're in competition with a world market for oil.. yet we have undeveloped oil sources that can be tapped, more than enough to supply north american (and only north american) demands right here. We can't 'go get it' because the 'greenies' got exploration banned. The bans must be lifted. There's enough American crude for the American, Canadian and Mexican market if we go get it and outlaw exporting North American crude or North American refined product.


Estimates for the amount of oil in reserves in America are far lower than that. If they were exploited, it could account for about 10% of US oil consumption. As more than 60% is currently imported, imports would still make up more than 50% of US consumption.

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2. Refining capacity is down. While we can still refine enough for domestic needs.. a fair portion of the oil we refine is exported. Stop refined oil exports. Not a drop of US refined oil should be exported till we are NOT dependant on OPEC oil. Next, start a development program for new refineries and methods.. BUILD again.


The US imports a lot of refined products, and exports very little.

According to the BP annual survey of the world oil industry, as of 2004 the US imported 10,038,000 barrels of crude a day, and exported 38,000 barrels of crude a day. In terms of refined products, the US imported 2,860,000 barrels a day, and exported 953,000 barrels a day.

So refined exports are about a third of refined imports, and the US has net imports of over 1.9 million barrels of refined products a day.

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3. Short Term.. Toss in the towel on the middle east's oil. If we have to 'go abroad' to secure oil, lets make it Canada and Mexico. Both countries are linked to us economicaly and physically. Who in America, Mexico or Canada would give a rats bellybutton about OPEC 'demands' when they cannot 'turn off our tap'?


The US, Canada and Mexico between them produced 14.15 million barrels a day in 2004. US consumption was over 20.5 million barrels a day, including Mexico and Canada consumption was over 24.6 million barrels a day.  So North America needs imports of over 10.5 million barrels a day. To put that in perspective, Saudi Arabia produces 10.5 million barrels a day.

Very little oil actually leaves North America to go elsewhere. Of Canada's 2.15 million barrels a day, 4,000 barrels go to S&C America, 15,000 barrels to Europe, 10,000 to Japan. Mexico and the US both export more, but it's still a tiny fraction of North American production.  Out of total NA production of 14.15 million barrels a day, only 1.45 million barrels a day are exported, and over 10 million barrels imported.

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As I see it, without a wall of text; our gas prices were lower than most other places in the world because we were the worlds largest crude oil customer and refined products exporter.


Prices to the US consumers were lower because most of the developed world taxes gasoline heavily. In terms of actual untaxed/subsidised price, the US was no better or worse than many countries.

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We need to change how we do business with regards to crude and refined products... and we need to STOP doing business with the OPEC theives... Algeria, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, and Venezuela.


If you stop doing business with Opec, North America has to find 10 million barrels a day of imports from somewhere. Saying you won't buy off the major suppliers is going to push your prices up, not down.

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Lastly.. the oil companies themselves. Time to whack 'em with an export tax. If oil products leave this country they do so with a huge tarrif attached. High enough that they will make more money putting the product in front of american consumers than they would if it goes to china.


US exports are mostly of speciality products. Trying to restrict movements will increase refining costs, not decrease them. As it is, the US exports tiny amounts of oil to China (15,000 barrels a day in 2004, compared to Chinese exports of 20,000 barrels a day to the US)

Looking at the Bp chart showing world oil movements, there are only 2 places in the world the US exports more oil to than it recieves oil from, Australasia and Japan. The US exports 98,000 barrels a day to them, and imports 36,000 barrels a day from them.

Stopping exports isn't going to help when you are a huge net importer. In fact, if other countries retaliate with their own export taxes on oil going to the US, you will find yourselves paying a lot more for oil, not less.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2006, 02:24:42 PM »
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Originally posted by Leslie
We are at war MT.  And yes, whatever it takes to win.



Les


Not arguing that we are not. But Bush should either act like we are at war or he should act like we are at peace. He seems to want it both ways depending on the issue.

Offline Leslie

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« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2006, 02:40:13 PM »
The weight of the world is more than acting.  However, I was talking about our responsibilities, not President Bush's.






Les

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2006, 02:40:35 PM »
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Originally posted by beet1e
True, but they would not buy as much. Demand for 12mpg SUVs would totally evaporate.  


Did you know that GM, Ford, and Chrysler make only one gasoline powered SUV that is EPA rated at 12 mpg or less? (Jeep Grand Cherokee w/ a 6.1 L/V8 )

They do have some E 85 vehicles, but at 85% ethanol, that is part of the technology.

Looks like the demand is non-existant now.
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Offline bj229r

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« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2006, 04:15:49 PM »
The price of oil/gas has nada to do with the war. Wy can't liberals grasp basic economic concepts, like supply vs demand:furious
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Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2006, 04:26:43 PM »
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The price of oil/gas has nada to do with the war.


It certainly has something to do with the war. The uncertainty over future supply is pushing the cost up. Oil production in Iraq is down by about 500,000 barrels a day from it's level in 2003, and down by about 2 million barrels a day on what it would have been given an Iraq not under sanctions.

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2006, 05:36:44 PM »
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Originally posted by Nashwan
It certainly has something to do with the war. The uncertainty over future supply is pushing the cost up. Oil production in Iraq is down by about 500,000 barrels a day from it's level in 2003, and down by about 2 million barrels a day on what it would have been given an Iraq not under sanctions.


I don't doubt that, and the question marks about Iran have an even greater effect than that-- but the premise layed out earlier said that Bush ought freeze prices/grab control of the oil companies BECAUSE of the war--that is total loser idea
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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2006, 05:43:06 PM »
"But you know, the unintelligent americans whom are living in one of the best economies we've known in history, will somehow blame Bush for high oil prices because of his past business dealings in oil before he was president."

lol
make it stop...
make it stop!
My back hurts and the laughing is killing me.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2006, 05:44:50 PM »
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Estimates for the amount of oil in reserves in America are far lower than that. If they were exploited, it could account for about 10% of US oil consumption. As more than 60% is currently imported, imports would still make up more than 50% of US consumption.


Nope.. don't like yer numbers. North American in-the-dirt resource statistics from my sources say 'in the billions of barrels'...

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/jan-june05/anwr_3-23.html

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The US imports a lot of refined products, and exports very little.

According to the BP annual survey of the world oil industry, as of 2004 the US imported 10,038,000 barrels of crude a day, and exported 38,000 barrels of crude a day. In terms of refined products, the US imported 2,860,000 barrels a day, and exported 953,000 barrels a day.

So refined exports are about a third of refined imports, and the US has net imports of over 1.9 million barrels of refined products a day.


Shortfalls? Sure. but not when we go after the oil that's already HERE.

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The US, Canada and Mexico between them produced 14.15 million barrels a day in 2004. US consumption was over 20.5 million barrels a day, including Mexico and Canada consumption was over 24.6 million barrels a day.  So North America needs imports of over 10.5 million barrels a day. To put that in perspective, Saudi Arabia produces 10.5 million barrels a day.


I think yer numbers are off again. Lets try 2006.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/3atab.html

While we have yet to really START pursuing new oil production here in the US, Saudi Arabia is pretty close to 'tapped'... they SAY they can produce more.. but haven't managed it yet. We KNOW we can produce more.. and we ain't started yet.

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Very little oil actually leaves North America to go elsewhere. Of Canada's 2.15 million barrels a day, 4,000 barrels go to S&C America, 15,000 barrels to Europe, 10,000 to Japan. Mexico and the US both export more, but it's still a tiny fraction of North American production.  Out of total NA production of 14.15 million barrels a day, only 1.45 million barrels a day are exported, and over 10 million barrels imported.


I could sure find a place for the exports... here. And, I'd not be a bit disturbed to have OPEC deal with the Chinese. They deserve each other. if we're gonna get 'energy independent', then some policys and trade deals are gonna get **** canned.

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Prices to the US consumers were lower because most of the developed world taxes gasoline heavily. In terms of actual untaxed/subsidised price, the US was no better or worse than many countries.


Enh? If our pricing is based on supply side economics then we can't have it both ways, can we? What yer saying here is our government taxes our gas less.. so for 40 years our gas was cheaper. Unca sam just bumped his taxes 100% this week so our gas prices are now in line with the worlds?? Yer not making much sense here...

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If you stop doing business with Opec, North America has to find 10 million barrels a day of imports from somewhere. Saying you won't buy off the major suppliers is going to push your prices up, not down.


10 million a day? Piece of cake. "Hello Canada! Hello Mexico! Guess What??!! You gotta new Oil partner.. from now on, all yer oil exports come here.. wuzzat? ..you already have a deal with China?? check yer radar lately? we just cancled yer china deals. We're buying what you send them.. same price. ..that is unless you wanna play 'conquistadores and indians' again.."

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US exports are mostly of speciality products. Trying to restrict movements will increase refining costs, not decrease them. As it is, the US exports tiny amounts of oil to China (15,000 barrels a day in 2004, compared to Chinese exports of 20,000 barrels a day to the US)


Tarriffs. beat the hell outt 'em with tarrifs.. and they'll turn that export production back here.. or revamp production capacity given to the 'specialty goo' to what we need here.  

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Looking at the Bp chart showing world oil movements, there are only 2 places in the world the US exports more oil to than it recieves oil from, Australasia and Japan. The US exports 98,000 barrels a day to them, and imports 36,000 barrels a day from them.


Looks like Australia and Japan can get in line with china at the saudi terminals. I doubt they'll be paying any more.. just getting it from there insteada here.

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Stopping exports isn't going to help when you are a huge net importer. In fact, if other countries retaliate with their own export taxes on oil going to the US, you will find yourselves paying a lot more for oil, not less.


Ahhh.. but therin lies loads (and barrells) of opportunity.. opporunities to exploit reserves here, make new trading alliances and get the hell off of opec's tit. Of course most folks that send their days telling us we 'can't' really mean 'we'll lose our fat assed profits!'.. too freakin bad. If we DON'T do anything, then nothing will change. Cutting OPEC out will certainly be painful.. and expensive. We may yet wind up at the same $ per gallon in the SUV tanks that the 'rest' of the world pays.. but guess what.. we won't be fattening any Arab's coffers, will we?

henh.
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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2006, 06:30:12 PM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Not arguing that we are not. But Bush should either act like we are at war or he should act like we are at peace. He seems to want it both ways depending on the issue.


And when he acts like we are at war you liberals start screaming about "living in fear"  Alot of preparedness is born out of fear but of course we can't make people affraid for political reasons or god forbid national security reasons even if they are the right thing to do.  http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=Bush%2C+fear
« Last Edit: April 23, 2006, 06:35:14 PM by Gunslinger »