Author Topic: How would the P-38 have performed...  (Read 4095 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #75 on: May 14, 2006, 08:38:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by paladinsfo
The aircraft construction was all metal, but because of the flutter problem the control surfaces were metal frames covered with fabric and doped, as on a piper cub....the P-40 and the P-51 all had fabric covered control surfaces....
Several folks tried to fully metalized the aircraft by covering the surfaces with aluminum...the planes were either static displays or may have broken up in flight, but invariably the fabric stayed.


The P-38 was one of the first fighters to be build with an all metal flush riveted skin.  If you notice from this picture you'll see that the flight controls are aluminum sheet metal.











Do I need to show more?  Oh..why not, showing that you're a fake is fun.  Here are some more.








OK, now to address your other assertion...

Quote
On the P-38....not leading edge conpression..in a power dive...
Initially all fighter aircraft are run through flight testing before being accepted for combat and the purchase is complete. Part of the test is a power dive from a specified altitude and a defined angle of dive. There is a cruise speed for aircraft and a never exceed speed. In the tests the P-38 was so clean aerodynamically that at 80% power the aircraft could easily exceed the design speed and actually broke the sound barrier, and cause control reversal. Initially two pilots were killed and a third barely escaped before losing the aircrft during flight tests..He ...said that when he tried to pull out of the dive the controls would not respong and the harder he pulled back, the steeper the plane dived....At a later date the same thing happened to the test pilot and for some unexplained reason he pushed forward on the controls and the aircraft climbed out of the dive. Prior to breaking the sound barrier he described the aircraft as shaking so badly that he thought he would break up in mid air then suddenly all was quiet, with virtually no sound in the cockpit....The air speed indicator was pegged full scale. When he recovered from the dive and was suddenly climbing then as he fell below the speed of sound the aircraft again reacted as though it was going to fail.....It was quite a while before they realized exactly what happened..The final write up was still top secret at the end of the war, and became public in the early 50's.... [/B]



The P-38 was one of the first airplanes fast enough to encounter "compressibility" (more properly called shock stall) problems in high altitude, high speed dives. The basic problem was that in a sustained dive from high altitude, speed quickly built to the point that the airflow over parts of the airplane (such as the upper surface of the wing) reached supersonic speeds. Not that the airplane itself was breaking the sound barrier, but the airflow in certain places was. A shock wave forms. This destroys the lift over that part of the wing. It also causes the air flowing off the wing to affect the tail in an unusual manner: it increases lift at the tail (Which is normally negative--an airplane is balanced by the weight in front of its wings, a down force; the lift of its wings, an up force; the negative lift of its tail, a down force--imagine a teeter/totter).

This loss of lift from the wings, coupled with increased lift from its tail, causes the nose of the airplane to go down. The increased dive angle causes the speed to increase farther. And so on, in a vicious and often fatal circle. The natural response of the pilot is to pull back on the yoke, which normally causes the elevators at the tail to increase the down force at the tail, and brings the nose up to pull out of the dive. But something terrifying happens. As the pilot tries to pull the stick back, the up force on the tail increases. No matter how hard he pulls, the aerodynamic force on the tail pushes harder. The controls have been described as feeling as if they were set in concrete. At this point the airplane is totally out of the pilot's control; there is literally nothing he can do.

The P-38 was not the only airplane to encounter this effect in dives from very high altitudes (where the air is thin), the P-47 and F4U both suffered the same problem. But the P-38 was different. The big radial engine fighters would dive uncontrollably toward the earth until they reached the thicker air at lower altitudes. There two things happened: 1. The speed of sound increases as an inverse function of altitude (that is, the speed of sound goes up as the altitude gets lower); 2. The increased drag of the thick air on their large frontal surfaces would tend to limit further speed increases.

The result was that when the speed of sound went up as the airplane got lower, the shock waves started to dissipate (the airflow over the wings began to fall back below the increased speed of sound), and as the increased drag started to affect the airplane, the speed of the airflow also decreased, and the shock waves dissipated more. Finally the pilot would begin to get some control back, and still pulling back as hard as he could on the stick, would wind up in a screaming zoom climb (unless he was unfortunate enough to have begun the process over mountains high enough to intrude before he reached the thicker air of lower altitudes).

The way in which the P-38 differed was in its extremely "clean" (streamline) design. Its drag was so low that the thicker lower air often (not always, some pilots did survive compressibility dives in P-38's) did not have enough effect for the pilot to regain control in time: the P-38 just dove straight into the ground like an arrow. The problem was magnified by a "flutter" (increasing amplitude vibration) set up in the tail by these excessive speeds, which often caused the tail to come off.

Lockheed and the Air Corps lost a number of test pilots and aircraft trying to understand and solve these problems. The P-38 had taken them into flight regimes unknown (or at best poorly understood) at that time.

A harrowing series of test dives, at progressively steeper angles, was required to plot the boundaries of these effects. The eventual solution included counter balancing and raising the tail of the airplane some 30 inches, and developing high speed dive flaps to control the rate of descent.

And one more fun fact...the F-90 penetration fighter was the first Lockheed aircraft to break the sound barrier – during a 60-degree dive at 900 mph.  


ack-ack
« Last Edit: May 14, 2006, 08:48:38 PM by Ack-Ack »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline Ack-Ack

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #76 on: May 14, 2006, 08:46:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by paladinsfo

Several P-51 B models were reworked as F6 models....I purchased a B model with the Malcolm hood that was shipped to Australia as a photo recon ship...it was never used, and when I purchased it it had logged 43.5 hours on the hobbs meter.


Voss?

Quote
Originally posted by paladinsfo
Capt Chuck Phillips
Former S.E.Asia pilot
Air America, Lao Air, Angola
China Post 1 [/B]


You forgot to add "Flew F-16s for the CIA during First Desert War" to your signature.



ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Raptor

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #77 on: May 14, 2006, 09:15:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by paladinsfo
In the tests the P-38 was so clean aerodynamically that at 80% power the aircraft could easily exceed the design speed and actually broke the sound barrier, and cause control reversal. Initially two pilots were killed and a third barely escaped before losing the aircrft during flight tests..He ...said that when he tried to pull out of the dive the controls would not respong and the harder he pulled back, the steeper the plane dived....At a later date the same thing happened to the test pilot and for some unexplained reason he pushed forward on the controls and the aircraft climbed out of the dive. Prior to breaking the sound barrier he described the aircraft as shaking so badly that he thought he would break up in mid air then suddenly all was quiet, with virtually no sound in the cockpit....The air speed indicator was pegged full scale. When he recovered from the dive and was suddenly climbing then as he fell below the speed of sound the aircraft again reacted as though it was going to fail.....It was quite a while before they realized exactly what happened..The final write up was still top secret at the end of the war, and became public in the early 50's....

Wow... theres just no words...
That is just ridiculously incorrect, are you making this up as you go along?

Offline Murdr

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #78 on: May 14, 2006, 09:39:21 PM »
Good post ack-ack.  Ill add that during the misdiagnosis of the "tail flutter" symptom, they actually reskined the elevators and horizontal stablizer sections with much thicker aluminum to try to stiffen up the tail.  But the structure of the tail was not the cause at all of the shaking control colum that the test pilots were assuming were the elevator surface fluttering.  Instead it was as akak described, the disturbed airflow comming off the wings, and causing erratic negative pressure on top of the tail assembly.

The compression itself was a function of the thick cord of the wing, which once critical mach (.68 for the P-38) was reached, could not allow air to flow around the foil efficently any more.  With the wing displacing air quicker than the air could smoothly flow around it, super sonic shock waves of air formed on top of the wing, creating negative lift on the wing.  Further exasberated by the disturbed air flow to the tail.

Now some take this info, and take it to mean that the 38 in general was poorly designed.  The design was not a matter of growing pains from the same engineer who designed the U2 and the SR-71.  The design was actually to the specifications set out by the Army Air Corps design competition.  To get the fuel capacity for the specified range, in the basic design Johnson had envisioned, the P-38s cord profiles needed to allow for the internal volume.

In that it was sucessful, and the P-38 was the first US fighter to have the range to make the North Atlantic Ferry under its own power.

Now back to the idea of parts of the aircraft displacing more air than can smoothly flow around it.  This also had an effect on airspeed instrumentation of the period.  Which led to, in a number of different aircraft, false readings when reaching high speeds.  This often times is the source of incorrect citations of "speed" "facts" when refering back to historical information.  I don't know if that is the "source" in this case, but it is non the less, wrong.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #79 on: May 14, 2006, 09:39:56 PM »
Turns out a big part of the problem with the P-38 was how the flashing and such around the side windows fit up. Proper fit up would result in big gains in how the plane handled and when it entered "mach tuck". Oddly enough, though fillets were fitted where the two inner wings join the center nacelle, greatly increasing the speed at which "mach tuck" began, and also reducing the buffeting, few, if any, other efforts like that were made. Those fillets dropped the speed at which air accelerated on the wings by a large margin. But notice where the dive flaps are located, as compared to where the thick section of wing and the radius fillets are located. The fillets and the thick sections of wing where air accelerates are both between the outer engine fuselages and the center nacelle. And yet the dive flaps are outboard of the engine fuselages. Directly in front of the Folwer flaps. Even though dive flaps did not reach the field until 1944, at least 90% of the work on compressibility was done before mid 1943.

Look closely around the cockpit of a P-38. Next to the windows you see the red "No Step" signs. This is where the fit up and adjustment is so critical. Several Lockheed tech bulletins were issued on the subject. Airflow is so critical in this area that failing to completely roll up the side windows can result in severe control issues.

The most notable crashes supposedly related to compressibility were due to parts failures. The famous crash that killed Ralph Virden, and resulted in the plane hitting a house, was actually caused by a spring tab failure that allowed full deflection of the elevators at over 300MPH, creating a force in excess of 12G. The crash involving Col. Ben Kelsey USAAF, was caused by the dive flap handle failing when Kelsey was testing the dive flaps.

Clarence "Kelly" Johnson predicted compressibility problems before the plane was ever built. In fact, he wrote a paper on the subject while the P-38 was in its very early stages. And actually, the first to experience it was not a Lockheed pilot, but a regular Army pilot, and he recovered. He reported it, and then testing began. At the altitude where Virden lost the YP-38 he was flying, it is doubtful he even experienced compression at all.
Most reports indicated that the majority of P-38's lost to terminal dives were the result of pilots wanting to see what happened if you exceeded the placarded speeds and angles.

And no P-38 I've ever seen even referred to has fabric control surfaces of any kind. They had all metal skin, period.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline 38ruk

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #80 on: May 14, 2006, 10:39:51 PM »
As Raptor put it wow .
Quote
Gentlemen..  I am new here....so if I make some errors...I apologize    
  Not to be a smart arse, but you better start apologizing :D

Offline Guppy35

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #81 on: May 14, 2006, 11:13:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by paladinsfo
Gentlemen..
I am new here....so if I make some errors...I apologize....and I am not especially literate with this machine....
a question was posed about re-engining a P-38 with the P-51 engine...it didn't need more power, it needed more reliable power. A p-38 regularly broke the sound barrier in a dive, several test pilots died before they discovered control reversal after breaking the barrier...another problem was the fabric control surfaces, because of the assymetrical wing the control surfaces would develop flutter under certain conditions and in a matter of seconds the vibration would damage or completely destroy the device.
Several P-51 B models were reworked as F6 models....I purchased a B model with the Malcolm hood that was shipped to Australia as a photo recon ship...it was never used, and when I purchased it it had logged 43.5 hours on the hobbs meter. I shipped it to the Philippines where I owned an aviation electronics establishment and started rework. At that time the Philippine air force was converting from P-51's to F-86 and F100 jets from the U.S. Air National Guard, whom was updating their equipment.
My bird was never equipped with pylons, weapons, armor etc..the only armor was in the cockpit area...The camera was behind the pilot and weighed in nearly 450 pounds, the old ARC radio units were also power hogs and added another 230 pounds as they were powered by dynamotors...all of that went...we moved a battery and extended fuel tank aft for weight and balance....From the Philippine air force I purchased 2 each crated packard engines rated at 2100 horsepower...my plane was 2200 pounds lighter than a combat version with 30% more power....for sunday afternoon fun and giggles we would dogfight with the P.A.F sabres...I won most of the time.....could turn a lot faster, shorter and outclimb them if they spooled down.....
Some additional info on the Flying Tigers P-40......When the order came in from China for the planes, Curtiss was working to capacity...but greedy for the bucks they wanted the contract....They very carefully read the contract and accepted it with no changes. In their inexperience the Chinese had not required external armament pylons on the planes.....nor additional armor....no self sealing fuel tanks etc....
Curtis-Wright contacted their warehouse manager to get some reject engine parts inventoried...parts that were out of spec for production engines...they carefull miked each part out and placed them in carefully marked bins.....they used hand fitted cranks etc, and extremely tight tolerance parts..resulting in the first "Blueprinted" engines....when the engines were installed and test flown the Curtiss test pilots never pushed the engines hard because they wanted a deliverable and didn't want a destroyed engine......When Chennault got the planes they were several hundred pounds lighter than those going to the U.S./Turkey/U.K and the tight tolerance engines resulted in horsepower that was 4-500 horsepower more than the stock engine......look at the combat record with the zero-sen fighter over china...amazing....

Capt Chuck Phillips
Former S.E.Asia pilot
Air America, Lao Air, Angola
China Post 1


Very curious about your F6 in particular that it was a malcom hooded bird.  I've seen one photo of a 'pickled' malcom hooded F6C being loaded for the Pacific and always wondered what the story was on those.

What serial was your bird?  I'd love to track the history on it.  Even more importantly, considering the rarity of that particular variant.  What ever became of yours?  The surviving B/C model Mustangs are fairly well documented.  If you've got one hiding some where, please share :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline BGBMAW

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #82 on: May 14, 2006, 11:25:02 PM »
scorpion bites are know to affect the memory in the subaracnoid area of your brain

Offline Widewing

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #83 on: May 15, 2006, 12:49:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by paladinsfo
There is a cruise speed for aircraft and a never exceed speed. In the tests the P-38 was so clean aerodynamically that at 80% power the aircraft could easily exceed the design speed and actually broke the sound barrier, and cause control reversal. Initially two pilots were killed and a third barely escaped before losing the aircrft during flight tests..He ...said that when he tried to pull out of the dive the controls would not respong and the harder he pulled back, the steeper the plane dived....At a later date the same thing happened to the test pilot and for some unexplained reason he pushed forward on the controls and the aircraft climbed out of the dive. Prior to breaking the sound barrier he described the aircraft as shaking so badly that he thought he would break up in mid air then suddenly all was quiet, with virtually no sound in the cockpit....The air speed indicator was pegged full scale. When he recovered from the dive and was suddenly climbing then as he fell below the speed of sound the aircraft again reacted as though it was going to fail.....It was quite a while before they realized exactly what happened..The final write up was still top secret at the end of the war, and became public in the early 50's....


Make note of this, it's the gospel: No propeller driven aircraft EVER came close to exceeding Mach one. Any report of such an occurance is pure poppycock.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Debonair

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #84 on: May 15, 2006, 12:59:45 AM »
roflmaoolmlol
:lol :lol :lol :noid :noid :noid :D

Offline leitwolf

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #85 on: May 15, 2006, 01:50:58 AM »
When fishing, you need patience.

You kinda blew it. ;)
veni, vidi, vulchi.

Offline Wolfala

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #86 on: May 15, 2006, 02:26:25 AM »
Enjoyed reading about the 38 being covered in rocket fuel fabric and occasionally exploding like the Hindenburg while exceeding Mach 1 while sipping gently on 80 % power.

O yea.

Welcome back Voss! Missed ya. Hows the latest vaporware comming along?


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Offline AquaShrimp

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #87 on: May 15, 2006, 02:26:46 AM »
What a coincidence, I too own a P-51.  Except mine is an H model.  Sometimes on Sundays when I get a bit bored, I fly over to the nearest airforce base and dogfight the jets there.  Sometimes the F-16s get me, but most the time I get them.

I'm glad to meet you Paladin.  I was getting a bit lonely seeing as how I've been the only rich, P-51 owning, war hero on this message board.

Offline Pooh21

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #88 on: May 15, 2006, 02:48:03 AM »
I dont own a p-51 :(


but I steal my gramma's when she isnt looking, the Washington ANG is terryfied of me. Because I beat them like a drunken lumberjacks wife.
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Offline paladinsfo

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #89 on: May 15, 2006, 06:51:03 AM »
sorry to burst your bubble...I was a civilian and in Iraq for other reasons the week before he went into Kuwait.......
The  reports that I read on the P-38 were written in english and had the heading of the Lockheed test facility...I read them in the mid 1950's.....
and from the remarks I assume that this is not a forum of Pilots but wannabes......