F4Us and 109s are great fun these days

[Widewing]

Originally posted by uvwpvW
Widewing, when will you learn to keep your big mouth shut?!

If pyro nerfs my Friedrich I'm putting a curse on you!

My deepest apologies! Now please, put down that voodoo doll....

My regards,

Widewing

[uvwpvW]

[Urchin]

Oh, I don't doubt that the 109F can hang with a Spit V, I went head to head with one in the MA and handily flew circles around it.  

The problem is I don't think it should be able to do that.  I was under the impression that for sustained turning wing-loading was key, with powerloading also being important, but secondary.  

I know the old British reports say that there is "little to choose" between the Spit 5 and Spit 9, and between the Spit 9 and 14 in turning ability, which you could chalk up to improved powerloading keeping the higher wingloading in check.. but the 109F's wingloading was ~10 lb/sqft higher than the Spit 5's.  

It just doesn't seem kosher to me.

[Debonair]

different airfoils & different wing shapes probably make wingloading a deceptive charateristic to compare, epecially at dogf***ing speeds where total drag is on the lower than most of the rest of the speed range

[Charge]

"My limited reading suggests the F was a really really good dog fighter. Yes it had a higher wingloading than the contemporary brits but I think it had a superior power loading. With the smaller wing, and cleaned up airframe, it didn't bleed energy as fast, and it had the extra horses to pull it self around."

I'd say that the smaller wing helps to keep energy in high speed maneuvers but in slow speed it becomes a disadvantage. That is where you need the slats to give you some extra angles and engine power to pull you through them (of course a notch of flaps could be useful unless the angles are not very radical). If the Spit doesn't try to out turn the F but holds a steady turn with enough speed it really should turn circles around F after it has run out of E when trying to gain angles on Spit.

Just my opinion.

-C+

[uvwpvW]

A Spitfire pilot will tell you the Spit could turn inside the 109. Some Messerschmitt pilots were unshaken in their belief that the 109 could turn inside the Spitfire! Both designs were capable of turning circles that would cause the pilot to "black-out" as the blood drained from the head. The pilot who could force himself to the limits without losing consciousness would emerge the victor from a turning battle, and the Spitfire pilots had supreme faith in their machine. The British popular press (and even one broadcast by the BBC early in the war) told them that the wings came off the 109 in a dive or in tight turns, untrue but possibly based on some early wing failures in the 109's predecessor the Bf108. British designers and aeronautical pundits also found the Bf109's wing structure somewhat strange, with only two attachments between the wing and fuselage and their suspicions that this might prove fragile in combat probably influenced the popular press comments.

The Spitfire had a lower wing loading than the Bf 109 and this would normally give the better turning circle. However the 109 had help with its leading edge slats which gave a lower stalling speed, and thus was able to turn tighter than a simple comparison of wing areas might suggest. The 109 was very forgiving if stalled, with little tendency for a stall to develop into an uncontrollable spin, something that could easily happen to a Spitfire, although the Spitfire gave its pilot plenty of warning that he was approaching a stall due to the slight twist in the wing known as "wash-out". It is this "wash-out" which probably holds the key to the Spitfire's success. Because of the twist to the wings the stall (break up in airflow over the wing) would develop first near the fuselage rather than at the tip as on most conventional "straight" wings. This manifests itself as a feedback to the pilot through the controls and the airframe, in effect the Spitfire "talks" to the pilot and tells him he must ease back on the stick to avoid stalling completely. Because the airflow at the tips of the wings (where the control surfaces are) is still stable the controls are still effective. in a tight combat turn with minimum turning circle the aircraft is always on the edge of stalling, the feedback the Spitfire gave its pilot is probably the crucial factor in a turning battle.
There is more than one account by German wartime fighter pilots that suggest that many Luftwaffe novices did not use the turning performance of the 109 to the full. They seem to have regarded the point at which the automatic slats popped out as being a warning to ease back. Only more experienced pilots pushed the Bf109 to its limits. The way the slats operated could itself be a problem, causing the Bf109 to "buck" and throw off the aim of the Bf109 pilot, perhaps at the critical moment.


109F-4
Wing area: 173 sq ft
Wing loading: 31.9 lb/sq ft

Spit V
Wing area: 242 sq ft
Wing loading: 28 lb/sq ft

Spit IX
Wing area: 242 sq ft
Wing loading: 30.2 lb/sq ft


- From “Spitfire Versus  Bf109” by Dinger Dell

[Shaky]

can you describe what you mean by a rudder reversal, and when its used.?

[Stang]

I'll try to make it, Widewing.

[TracerX]

I flew the 109F last night for a couple sorties, and it seemed more nimble than I remember it.  I went to fighter town in the middle of the map, and it was wall to wall spitfires.  Spit16's have a real hard time getting guns on the 109F.  The best fight I had was against FX1 in a Spit16, and I needed all the turning ability the 109F had to get him to overshoot.  A rolling scissors ensued, and in the vertical, the Spit16 was able to keep things even until it got real slow.  I could not turn right very well at all, and at one point, hung there in the air for what seemed like eternity before I kicked rudder the opposite way and rolled out to the left.  Luckily I had landed a few rounds on FX1, or I might not have found out who the excellent Spit16 pilot was when he stalled out and hit the ground.  

After action report, turns great left at all speeds, turns right almost as good up to around 120 kts or so.  After that, rudder is required to turn right, and at stall speed, all turns should be power off, or to the left.  I was comfortable in any turn fight, except for the one with the D3A.

[killnu]

I havent been in the F4Us much, but I am loving the changes to the 109s...especially the K4.  what a ride.

[Hawco]

I can't see a spit and a 109 doing under 100 in say, the AvA, there's just no way a fight could last that long before one of them dying to a squaddie or friend etc.
But in the MA, I could see it, So the facts lay themselves out RE: 109f turning, however, chances of it actually happening (in the AvA) are small to tiny.



And like you said, it'll probabaly be fixed with the 38 update.
Interesting stuff though sir!

[uvwpvW]

Originally posted by Hawco
And like you said, it'll probabaly be fixed with the 38 update.

That's assuming it's wrong in the first place.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by uvwpvW
That's assuming it's wrong in the first place.

HTC already said there was a bug with full flaps on the 38.






Bronk

[uvwpvW]

Yes, but if I'm not mistaken he also said the bug only affected the P-38. He or Pyro said earlier that some planes would benefit from the new flaps model while others would suffer. I'm hoping the new 109s are here to stay.

*Crosses fingers, knocks on wood and throws salt over shoulder*

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Bronk
HTC already said there was a bug with full flaps on the 38.






Bronk

Hmmmm thought that's what i said.




Bronk

PS  I like the change also . Not just the 109s, seams most have a benefit with new model.