Author Topic: F4Us and 109s are great fun these days  (Read 3050 times)

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8802
F4Us and 109s are great fun these days
« on: May 04, 2006, 06:21:10 PM »
Wednesday evening in the TA presented a terrific opportunity to fly with and compete against some of the better pilots in Aces High.

Present were Infensus, Murdr, Nomak, Creton, TC, Ghosth, Soulyss and Qatr.

There were also some less well known, but very capable MA regulars who stopped in to work on getting some time in specific aircraft.

When I logged off for the evening, I think that everyone had been flying Bf 109s, mostly the F-4 model, but Creton and Infensus were dueling in G-2s for a while. All were in agreement that the 109F-4 was one seriously fun ride now.

Let me state at the outset that since the 2.07 update, the Bf 109F-4 has become one of the more remarkable fighters in the plane set. But, I’ll get into that a bit later.

Bingo73 and I met to work on flying the F4Us. After flying around for a short time, the one thing I noticed was that Bingo73 wasn’t aware of how effective the F4U’s rudder is when flying at low speed, just above stall. After about five minutes of demonstration and discussion, Bingo was doing some of the nicest rudder reversals I’ve seen. A full flaps, nose-high rudder reversal is one of the slickest maneuvers you will ever see. Moreover, it’s a devastating maneuver when done well with proper timing.

While Bingo was flying an F4U-1, I grabbed a 109F-4. He pulled up close on my 6 o’clock and we entered a left-hand turn (a lufberry). We both fed out flaps until fully down. Around and around we went. While the F4U-1 is a remarkable turner (easily a match for the Spit16 or Spit8), the 109F-4 was able to pull around on the F4U’s six in just 4 full revolutions. Needless to say, this was quite startling to see. However, it did confirm what I had come to believe; that the 109F-4 is now among the best turning fighters in AH2.

Previous experiences suggested that the 109F could hang with the Spitfire Mk.V in a flat turning contest. Indeed, inasmuch as the 109F has a marked climb advantage over the SpitV, it would gain a clear edge by simply going nose-high and the Spitfire could not match it. Likewise, I found that the 109F could handle the Niki well enough. Only below 100 mph did the Niki have an edge, and that resulted from its ability to keep the nose a tiny bit higher than the 109F. Moreover, it takes an extremely good pilot to recognize that and then be able to capitalize on it

As more and more pilots tried the newly uber 109F, we found ourselves in a giant lufberry consisting of 109F-4s, F4Us, a Hurricane IIC and a Seafire. Well now, I realized that this was a great opportunity to compare turn performance against some very good turn fighters. As we circled around, Ghosth entered the circle in a Seafire, right behind me. Just about four and one half revolutions later, I was behind the Seafire and was able to maintain a tighter circle. Ditto for the Hurricane IIC, which was only a bit better than the Seafire, but still notably inferior to the 109F in steady-state turn rate, but with the turn radius being similar.

Some tips for flying the 109F-4 since the 2.07 update.

Unlike the P-38s, combat trim actually improves the stability of the 109F during low-speed maneuvering. However, be prepared to trim manually when flying at high speed, because the elevators stiffen considerably above 450 mph. For high-speed work, set the elevator trim at least 1/3 up from the bottom of the scale.

The 109F-4 turns better to the left than to the right at low speeds (torque and P factor effect)

Like most aircraft, the 109F has poor aileron authority at low speed, so use the rudder to speed up roll in either direction.

Without a gondola option, the 109F has limited firepower. Therefore, get in as close as possible to maximize what firepower it does possess.

Use of flaps is required to out-turn the Spitfire V and Seafire. Nonetheless, be careful not to overuse the flaps as the 109F-4 offers only average acceleration.

Like the other 109s, the F model tends to lose rudder authority when applying right rudder just above stall, this appears to be the result of modeling prop wash impinging on the rudder. Pull off power a bit and push the nose down to get some authority back, but do not reduce power so much as to induce a snap-stall. This takes some practice to master.

Like any other aircraft, the place to learn its limits and capabilities is the TA, not the MA. So, set aside some time to practice against adversaries who cannot shoot you down before venturing into the MA.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
F4Us and 109s are great fun these days
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2006, 07:11:40 PM »
Well, that has to be a bug I think.  

There is no way the 109F should be outturning the Spit V and Hurri2C... the Spit V has wingloading of what, like 26 lb/sqft?  The 109F should be in the mid 30s.  And it doesn't have that much more power, although I'll admit I'm winging it here and not looking up the numbers.  

Seems like it is defying some laws of physics.

Offline TracerX

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3230
F4Us and 109s are great fun these days
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2006, 07:28:57 PM »
Awesome stuff widewing.  I will have to wait to see if the info holds true for myself.  I have always been a 109 fan, but have not tried the F-4 for a long time.  I have become dependant on the 30mm gun of the G-14 and K-4.  I had known the 110C could turn like a bandit, but now the F-4 does too?

Offline Stang

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6127
F4Us and 109s are great fun these days
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2006, 07:33:56 PM »
109F won't outturn the spit V, not even close.  The reworked flaps have just made it be able to hang with the spit in the 200mph ballpark range.  Once slow the spit v runs circles around it, as the spit should.

Offline Soulyss

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6559
      • Aces High Events
Re: F4Us and 109s are great fun these days
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2006, 07:53:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Wednesday evening in the TA presented a terrific opportunity to fly with and compete against some of the better pilots in Aces High.

Present were Infensus, Murdr, Nomak, Creton, TC, Ghosth,  and Qatr.

There were also some less well known, but very capable MA regulars who stopped in to work on getting some time in specific aircraft.

Oh yeah and that Soulyss guy was there too.

When I logged off for the evening, I think that everyone had been flying Bf 109s, mostly the F-4 model, but Creton and Infensus were dueling in G-2s for a while. All were in agreement that the 109F-4 was one seriously fun ride now.



I amended your post to make it more accurate. :D
Was great fun, while I didn't get in the F myself it seems like it could pull some amazing manuvers.  Learned a couple things to boot which was nice, thanks for the time Wide.  :)
80th FS "Headhunters"
I blame mir.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8802
F4Us and 109s are great fun these days
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2006, 08:51:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stang
109F won't outturn the spit V, not even close.  The reworked flaps have just made it be able to hang with the spit in the 200mph ballpark range.  Once slow the spit v runs circles around it, as the spit should.


I understand your perception, but that's what the rest of 'em thought too... Indeed, we saw the same statement before, whereas the Dhog couldn't turn with, much less out-turn the Spit16.. Until we proved it. Given equal pilots, the Spit16 should win if the fight is prolonged due to superior vertical ability at low speeds. However, during the transition from merge to low speed, the F4U is extremely formidable. Should the fight be confined to flat turns, the F4U will fly a smaller circle and eventually catch the Spit16. Fight a 109F with a Dhog and the opposite is true. The 109F wins that turning contest with relative ease. I'm not talking about 200 mph maneuvering, I'm talking about 85 mph on knife edge.

After 2.07, it's a whole new universe.

I didn't film Wednesday's entertainment, but you can ask Murdr, TC, Infensus or Ghosth. Not only did the 109F out-turn Ghosth's Seafire at 100 mph, it did so convincingly.

I do have film of a duel between my 109F and a SpitV flown by Sonic23. The 109F was superior, flaps out at speeds between 90 and 110 mph. I can post it if anyone wants to see it. Sonic23 is no slouch in a Spitfire.

Better yet, I'll be in the TA tomorrow evening after 9 PM eastern. Stop in, grab a SpitV, we'll crack open a beer at our respective ends and give it a go.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8802
F4Us and 109s are great fun these days
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2006, 09:19:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
Well, that has to be a bug I think.  

There is no way the 109F should be outturning the Spit V and Hurri2C... the Spit V has wingloading of what, like 26 lb/sqft?  The 109F should be in the mid 30s.  And it doesn't have that much more power, although I'll admit I'm winging it here and not looking up the numbers.  

Seems like it is defying some laws of physics.


I agree that it's seems a bit far-fetched, and I was very much surprised myself. You know I wouldn't make that statement without having established it empirically by flying it against good pilots, as well as conducting comparison tests.

Is the new flap modeling overly ambitious? That's certainly a possibility as no one expected the 109F to perform as it does. Pyro stated that the new flap/drag model would affect every aircraft, some for good, some for bad. We see that the P-38 suffered greatly, but the 109s improved quite a bit, with the 109F going from damn good to genuine UFO status.

Should it be that good? No, it probably shouldn't be. However, until there's another patch it's that good for the time being.

Try one... Mix it up with a good stick in a SpitV or Seafire and you'll see what I'm conveying here. But, enjoy it while it lasts, because I'm fairly certain it won't be like this 6 months from now. I expect a general tweaking of the flap/drag model when the P-38 bug fix is incorporated.

By the way, using flaps in the SpitV or Seafire gains nothing but added drag and a general destabilization at slow speeds. In contrast, the 109F is rock steady and drag seems far less than in the SpitV or Seafire. Again, that reflects what Pyro stated when 2.07 was released.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Ghosth

  • AH Training Corps (retired)
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8497
      • http://332nd.org
F4Us and 109s are great fun these days
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2006, 09:29:09 PM »
I have to add, for that first turn in the seafire when I started out on widewings 6. I had very little trouble holding enough lead for a shot at any point. But only for the first turn. So if the seafire has the advantage, its going to be able to use it to kill.

After that first turn there was no way to catch up to widewing or murdr in 109f &
E. They just started crawling up my 6 and stayed there.

Mind you this was not a pure dogfight, it was a sustained turn.

But it does tell you a few things about the capabilities.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8802
F4Us and 109s are great fun these days
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2006, 09:58:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ghosth
I have to add, for that first turn in the seafire when I started out on widewings 6. I had very little trouble holding enough lead for a shot at any point. But only for the first turn. So if the seafire has the advantage, its going to be able to use it to kill.

After that first turn there was no way to catch up to widewing or murdr in 109f &
E. They just started crawling up my 6 and stayed there.

Mind you this was not a pure dogfight, it was a sustained turn.

But it does tell you a few things about the capabilities.


Yes sir, when I saw you behind me, I dumped more flaps and reefed it tighter. About 4 turns later I was on your six with Murdr alongside. I nearly chuckled when Rowdy stalled his Hurricane trying to match us. It was wobbling like 109s used to.

I found in my duel with Sonic that I could reverse faster in the 109F, taking full advantage of the excellent flaps. He was not expecting that. Once speeds deteriorated down to the 120 mph range, the 109F began to gain angles until I could fly straight at the turning SpitV and put my sights on the canopy. We were basically flying intersecting circles. Several times he came close to getting a guns solution, but I'd just tighten the turn and he couldn't get the Spit around enough without it dipping a wing. Sonic reversed from left to right a couple of times and that only made it easier to gain angles, especially as I could do shallow yo-yos, which the Spitfire could not do so close to stall speed. Much like the Spit16 vs the Dhog.  

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8802
Re: Re: F4Us and 109s are great fun these days
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2006, 10:01:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Soulyss
I amended your post to make it more accurate. :D
Was great fun, while I didn't get in the F myself it seems like it could pull some amazing manuvers.  Learned a couple things to boot which was nice, thanks for the time Wide.  :)


You did great, and it was a pleasure flying with you.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline SAS_KID

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1098
      • http://www.myspace.com/saskid
F4Us and 109s are great fun these days
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2006, 10:04:59 PM »
maybe we should pork the 109's flaps instead of the 38's:D :rofl
Quote from: hitech on Today at 09:27:26 AM
What utter and compete BS, quite frankly I should kick you off this bbs for this post.

The real truth is you do not like the answer.

HiTech

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
F4Us and 109s are great fun these days
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2006, 10:29:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
I didn't film Wednesday's entertainment, but you can ask Murdr, TC, Infensus or Ghosth. Not only did the 109F out-turn Ghosth's Seafire at 100 mph, it did so convincingly.

109E also.  I was in the Emil for that lufberry, making my own observations in relation to your Friedrick and Ghosth's seafire.  As you saw, it also is blessed with the low speed stability, and tight nose above the horizon turn with the flaps out.

Offline uvwpvW

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 201
F4Us and 109s are great fun these days
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2006, 10:35:23 PM »
Widewing, when will you learn to keep your big mouth shut?!

If pyro nerfs my Friedrich I'm putting a curse on you!

;)

Offline joeblogs

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 649
the F
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2006, 10:49:17 PM »
My limited reading suggests the F was a really really good dog fighter. Yes it had a higher wingloading than the contemporary brits but I think it had a superior power loading. With the smaller wing, and cleaned up airframe, it didn't bleed energy as fast, and it had the extra horses to pull it self around.

So this description doesn't seem at all odd to me.


Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
I agree that it's seems a bit far-fetched, and I was very much surprised myself. You know I wouldn't make that statement without having established it empirically by flying it against good pilots, as well as conducting comparison tests.

Is the new flap modeling overly ambitious? That's certainly a possibility as no one expected the 109F to perform as it does. Pyro stated that the new flap/drag model would affect every aircraft, some for good, some for bad. We see that the P-38 suffered greatly, but the 109s improved quite a bit, with the 109F going from damn good to genuine UFO status.

Should it be that good? No, it probably shouldn't be. However, until there's another patch it's that good for the time being.

Try one... Mix it up with a good stick in a SpitV or Seafire and you'll see what I'm conveying here. But, enjoy it while it lasts, because I'm fairly certain it won't be like this 6 months from now. I expect a general tweaking of the flap/drag model when the P-38 bug fix is incorporated.

By the way, using flaps in the SpitV or Seafire gains nothing but added drag and a general destabilization at slow speeds. In contrast, the 109F is rock steady and drag seems far less than in the SpitV or Seafire. Again, that reflects what Pyro stated when 2.07 was released.

My regards,

Widewing

Offline uvwpvW

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 201
F4Us and 109s are great fun these days
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2006, 10:58:57 PM »
And it had slats and usable flaps. The Spit had no slats and its binary split flaps were little more than airbrakes.